[CL14715]

They’re pretty different tonally, though; not worlds apart measurement-wise, but they’re clearly made for different audiences.

Yep. I wonder if that’s because of the DD implementation.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Yep. I wonder if that’s because of the DD implementation.

The peaks on the Odin and the A12t are almost perfect opposites - upper mids and lower treble on the Odin and lower mids and upper treble on the A12t. The Odin’s bass to me would sound absolutely insane on the phantom’s midrange

 

[RTodd]

C

Google Docs can do this! Shared document, and you set who has edit rights.

Can it remain anonymous, not sure how to set that up. Compiling comments now. Most of the comments lack detail about what is the Love or the Hate.

Came up with a name for the list.
Polarized, What The HUE!!

 

[Rockwell75]

Here's one from left field: Andromeda. Granted I haven't heard the 2020, but the OG and SS Andromeda must be the most meek, uninspiring excuses for 'TOTL' IEMs I've heard. They were actually the first 'high end' IEMs I'd heard, coming from full size headphones, and while I actually quite enjoyed the treble response, the bass was so meek I had to double check I had a seal. And the mids were just meh. If this was the gold standard for kilobuck IEMs I was not impressed. Had several extended sessions with them over time, with a variety of OI sources, and every time I preferred far cheaper and more enjoyable IEMs. If you enjoy bass in your music, avoid at all costs.

Interestingly around the same time I heard my first real high end IEM, the much discussed U12t, which set me on the road to transitioning from full size headphones to all portable. Say what you like about it, it's the best tuned IEM I've heard to date (don't laugh, sharing a spot with the BLON BL-03, through in a parallel universe of course - and my 03 seems to be very special unicorn). The 12t is simply on point with everything. Even the bass is excellent, albeit BA. As for emotional engagement, I do get it, but if the 12t isn't engaging, then Andro will drive you to hari-kiri. I found true enjoyment with the 12t, the first transducer of any kind (short of high-end speakers) that made me feel like I wasn't listening to a vocal recording.

Hope that adds some spice to the mix.

It shouldn't be spicy to simply have an opinion and everyone is entitled to listen with their own ears before forming theirs. We've discussed your misgivings around the Andro before (I've heard all of them except the SS version and, not counting arbitrage purposes, I would personally take any one of them any day of the week over the u12t...ymmv etc. etc.) and, for me anyway, this is just one of those things to agree to disagree about. When you boil it all down my impression is that people who participate in this hobby tend to fall into one of two broad categories-- those who approach it from an analytical perspective and those who approach it from an emotional perspective. The former type range from those who are primarily interested in gear over music to those whose temperament draws them more to things like detail, resolution and technical skill. The latter type are, by contrast, less concerned with sheer technical skill and more concerned with connecting emotionally with their music, however that may look. Both viewpoints are totally natural and the u12t/Andromeda discussion tends to straddle this particular division right down the middle. Both the u12t and Andromeda can be seen as "referency" to an extent-- only the u12t is reference skewed heavily to the analytic side-- in fact one could even argue that it's the paradigm example of such an IEM. The Andromeda, by contrast, is reference skewed a little towards musicality-- it appeals to people who approach more from an emotional perspective and want to be swept off their feet. If asked for an IEM with a reference like character with a hefty dose of emotional engagement it's hard to find a better example than the Andromeda. Put another way both Andromeda and u12t are the respective kings of their individual domains and whichever one prefers overall (if either of them) will be an eminently personal choice.

I want to stress again that both viewpoints and perspectives are totally natural and individual-dependent-- it's futile to try and claim one is right or wrong in an absolute sense. I would say that while it's true that most people are a combo of both ideals mentioned above and not fully committed to either side..I would claim that as one approaches the summit of their particular tastes that they will inevitably end up siding more with one side (analytic or emotional) than the other. As with everything else though, YMMV.

 

[gLer]

I believe it’s referred to as, Odin.

Nice try, but no. Tuning seems very different, and I haven't heard Odin yet.

They’re pretty different tonally, though; not worlds apart measurement-wise, but they’re clearly made for different audiences.

What he said.

 

[CL14715]

Nice try, but no. Tuning seems very different, and I haven't heard Odin yet.

Well what are you waiting for?!

 

[gLer]

It shouldn't be spicy to simply have an opinion and everyone is entitled to listen with their own ears before forming theirs. We've discussed your misgivings around the Andro before (I've heard all of them except the SS version and, not counting arbitrage purposes, I would personally take any one of them any day of the week over the u12t) and, for me anyway, this is just one of those things to agree to disagree about. When you boil it all down my impression is that people who participate in this hobby tend to fall into one of two broad categories-- those who approach it from an analytical perspective and those who approach it from an emotional perspective. The former type range from those who are primarily interested in gear over music to those whose temperament draws them more to things like detail, resolution and technical skill. The latter type are, by contrast, less concerned with sheer technical skill and more concerned with connecting emotionally with their music, however that may look. Both viewpoints are totally natural and the u12t/Andromeda discussion tends to straddle this particular division right down the middle. Both the u12t and Andromeda can be seen as "referency" to an extent-- only the u12t is reference skewed heavily to the analytic side-- in fact one could even argue that it's the paradigm example of such an IEM. The Andromeda, by contrast, is reference skewed a little towards musicality-- it appeals to people who approach more from an emotional perspective and want to be swept off their feet. If asked for an IEM with a reference like character with a hefty dose of emotional engagement it's hard to find a better example than the Andromeda. Again, both viewpoints and perspectives are totally natural and individual-dependent-- it's futile to try and claim one is right or wrong in an absolute sense. I would say that while it's true that most people are a combo of both ideals mentioned above and not fully committed to either side..I would personally argue that as one approaches the summit of their particular tastes that they will inevitably end up siding more with one side (analytic or emotional) than the other.

All points well made. The rest of my reply is an essay so to save the scrolling space...

Spoiler: An Andro-sized Ramble

We'll have to agree to disagree that the Andro is the 'emotional' equivalent to the U12t's 'analytical' though; personally I felt much more emotionally connected to the music I listened to with the U12t than I ever did with Andro. And actually I never found Andro technically lacking (other than its lack of bass heft and presence). I have a friend who swears by Andro and the LPGT and he's down-the-line the most 'analytical' listener I know. He also doesn't like bass crowding any of the FR, so there's that.

I think it all comes down to how we hear things and how they trigger us emotionally, rather than saying because IEM X is more technically capable than IEM Y, that it can't be equally emotive, if not more so. I, for example, have an emotional bond with deep, canernous (but not muddy) bass, built up over years of enjoying my dad's 2-channel system that emphasized bass and drums (at least my childhood memory tells me so). Which means when I listen to old favourites and that element is lacking, I disconnect emotionally.

As I got deeper and deeper into this part of the hobby (in truth I've only been really invested in higher end IEMs for about two years now, maybe less), so I've refined what I enjoy most. One aspect that initially grabbed me about IEMs was the resolution and pinpoint isolation of vocals and instrumental elements, and the IEM I had that first experience with was the U12t. It made me feel as if there was nothing between me and the singer, and made my cry as a result in many occasions.

Until that point I was listening with more fun and frivolous IEMs, cheap stuff like Bose and IMR and FiiO, that were great but not finely tuned and refined like the higher end stuff. The Andro I first heard around the same time, and while I loved the resolution and presentation, it simply didn't resonate with me emotionally at all.

Long story short, I don't think it's as simple as saying you're either an emotional or analytical listener. I listen for emotion, but the hobby part for me is getting that delivered with as much technical proficiency as possible.

I want to revel in mindblowing audio reproduction that hits all my sound preferences. Otherwise I wouldn't invest all this money and time and effort and community participation just to find something affordable that sounds great.

To tail it all off, I'm not writing this to get anyone to agree with me. Just to clarify why I initially chose Andro as a candidate for the love/hate list. I get why people love it. I get why people hate it. Same goes for the U12t. Or any other IEM for that matter.

 

[gLer]

Well what are you waiting for?!

@Jack Vang

 

[Frankie D]

It shouldn't be spicy to simply have an opinion and everyone is entitled to listen with their own ears before forming theirs. We've discussed your misgivings around the Andro before (I've heard all of them except the SS version and, not counting arbitrage purposes, I would personally take any one of them any day of the week over the u12t...ymmv etc. etc.) and, for me anyway, this is just one of those things to agree to disagree about. When you boil it all down my impression is that people who participate in this hobby tend to fall into one of two broad categories-- those who approach it from an analytical perspective and those who approach it from an emotional perspective. The former type range from those who are primarily interested in gear over music to those whose temperament draws them more to things like detail, resolution and technical skill. The latter type are, by contrast, less concerned with sheer technical skill and more concerned with connecting emotionally with their music, however that may look. Both viewpoints are totally natural and the u12t/Andromeda discussion tends to straddle this particular division right down the middle. Both the u12t and Andromeda can be seen as "referency" to an extent-- only the u12t is reference skewed heavily to the analytic side-- in fact one could even argue that it's the paradigm example of such an IEM. The Andromeda, by contrast, is reference skewed a little towards musicality-- it appeals to people who approach more from an emotional perspective and want to be swept off their feet. If asked for an IEM with a reference like character with a hefty dose of emotional engagement it's hard to find a better example than the Andromeda. Put another way both Andromeda and u12t are the respective kings of their individual domains and whichever one prefers overall (if either of them) will be an eminently personal choice.

I want to stress again that both viewpoints and perspectives are totally natural and individual-dependent-- it's futile to try and claim one is right or wrong in an absolute sense. I would say that while it's true that most people are a combo of both ideals mentioned above and not fully committed to either side..I would claim that as one approaches the summit of their particular tastes that they will inevitably end up siding more with one side (analytic or emotional) than the other. As with everything else though, YMMV.

I agree. I still find the Andro excellent, though to be honest it is now only my workout IEM. It did get new life for me when I put the AzlaSednaLight Short tips on it. The bass popped much more in comparison to my other tips.

 

[Rockwell75]

All points well made. The rest of my reply is an essay so to save the scrolling space...

Spoiler: An Andro-sized Ramble

We'll have to agree to disagree that the Andro is the 'emotional' equivalent to the U12t's 'analytical' though; personally I felt much more emotionally connected to the music I listened to with the U12t than I ever did with Andro. And actually I never found Andro technically lacking (other than its lack of bass heft and presence). I have a friend who swears by Andro and the LPGT and he's down-the-line the most 'analytical' listener I know. He also doesn't like bass crowding any of the FR, so there's that.

rather than saying because IEM X is more technically capable than IEM Y, that it can't be equally emotive, if not more so. I, for example, have an emotional bond with deep, canernous (but not muddy) bass, built up over years of enjoying my dad's 2-channel system that emphasized bass and drums (at least my childhood memory tells me so). Which means when I listen to old favourites and that element is lacking, I disconnect emotionally.

As I got deeper and deeper into this part of the hobby (in truth I've only been really invested in higher end IEMs for about two years now, maybe less), so I've refined what I enjoy most. One aspect that initially grabbed me about IEMs was the resolution and pinpoint isolation of vocals and instrumental elements, and the IEM

Until that point I was listening with more fun and frivolous IEMs, cheap stuff like Bose and IMR and FiiO, that were great but not finely tuned and refined like the higher end stuff. The Andro I first heard around the same time, and while I loved the resolution and presentation, it simply didn't resonate with me emotionally at all.

Long story short, I don't think it's as simple as saying you're either an emotional or analytical listener. I listen for emotion, but the hobby part for me is getting that delivered with as much technical proficiency as possible.

I want to revel in mindblowing audio reproduction that hits all my sound preferences. Otherwise I wouldn't invest all this money and time and effort and community participation just to find something affordable that sounds great.

To tail it all off, I'm not writing this to get anyone to agree with me. Just to clarify why I initially chose Andro as a candidate for the love/hate list. I get why people love it. I get why people hate it. Same goes for the U12t. Or any other IEM for that matter.

Thank-you for this thoughtful response-- I agree that this phenomena is way more nuanced than my overly simplified post made it out to be.

I think it all comes down to how we hear things and how they trigger us emotionally,

There is a lot of truth in this. For example I can go on to Agadmator's Chess channel on youtube and watch him do a play by play of a match between Kasparov and Vassily Ivanchuk and be totally enraptured and excited...something I know would leave many if not most people I know bored out of their minds. We all hear and experience things differently.

I had that first experience with was the U12t. It made me feel as if there was nothing between me and the singer, and made my cry as a result in many occasions.

I can totally relate to this and know what you mean. By point of comparison I get this same intimate experience with the Elysium-- the only difference is that with Ely it's a genuine heartfelt intimacy whereas with the u12t it's a more clinical type of intimacy...like I'd taken my music library to the Dr.'s office for a physical-- the intimacy is there but the emotional connection is not (for me). Again YMMV...this is actually a topic I'm quite interested in in a broad philosophical sense and sometime, perhaps in the summer when I'm on holidays and not swamped with work, I might take the time to write something more comprehensive about this. Thanks again for your thoughtful response.

Edit: RE the emotional/analytic generalization-- I know it's a vast simplification and a generalization and again I believe it's more a spectrum with most people being tending towards a combo of both ideals.

 

[Rockwell75]

I agree. I still find the Andro excellent, though to be honest it is now only my workout IEM. It did get new life for me when I put the AzlaSednaLight Short tips on it. The bass popped much more in comparison to my other tips.

The fact that has any place at all in your collection given its calibre says a lot. All of this said I should have my new Andro 2020 in hand by lunch time today

 

[mvvRAZ]

On the whole emotional vs analytical - I have seen legitimately every type of sound and IEM described as "emotional." Imo that simply comes down to someone connecting with an IEM and getting that emotional response and has nothing to do with what the IEM actually sounds like. For example, the Elysium has a very warm and inviting midrange, which is often referred to as "emotional" - for my current music preferences, "emotional" is a dry and raw midrange that adequately transmits the mood of the music. In that sense, my A12t is much more "emotional" than my Elysium. Most of the Erl's fanbase for example calls it an extremely emotional IEM, but I can barely get through an album without getting crazy bored, or emotionless if you want to call it that. Same can be said about virtually any IEM

My point being, in a hobby that is already extremely subjective, calling one IEM or another "emotional" is pretty much just saying that you like it.

 

[Rockwell75]

On the whole emotional vs analytical - I have seen legitimately every type of sound and IEM described as "emotional." Imo that simply comes down to someone connecting with an IEM and getting that emotional response and has nothing to do with what the IEM actually sounds like. For example, the Elysium has a very warm and inviting midrange, which is often referred to as "emotional" - for my current music preferences, "emotional" is a dry and raw midrange that adequately transmits the mood of the music. In that sense, my A12t is much more "emotional" than my Elysium. Most of the Erl's fanbase for example calls it an extremely emotional IEM, but I can barely get through an album without getting crazy bored, or emotionless if you want to call it that. Same can be said about virtually any IEM

My point being, in a hobby that is already extremely subjective, calling one IEM or another "emotional" is pretty much just saying that you like it.

I see what you mean but I still maintain that it's deeper than that...but to really do the topic justice will require much more thought and a more substantial post than I'm able to muster now so I'll just shelve the topic for the time being. Interesting that you find Erl boring though.

 

[proedros]

Funny actually listening to Lateralus right now.
I was thinking about checking out Slipknot because I have not done so. Maybe should just skip it.

if you like Tool / Lateralus , i think your next stop should be those prog rock gents , their 2001-2003 live/concert recordings are head-crushing stuff and remind me a lot of a more complex/proggy Tool sound/vibe

Actually , Tool bow down to them and consider them a major influence on their sound (they also took them as support group on their summer 2001 US Lateralus tour , and at some point Maynard comes out and says 'we should be opening for them, actually')

Slipknot are just too much post-teenage angst (for me , at least) - if you like what you see and want something more, then head over https://www.dgmlive.com/tours?year=2003&liveshow=on and check out those 2003 KC shows for sale

 

[RTodd]

Here is what I could get from the comments, lots of blanks. If you feel strongly about one of these in less than five words why, that would be best.