[Edric Li]

Wow. That's the real dedication.

Sound wise, I like(d) both my E3000 and E5000, but ultimately both proved to be "a money down the drain".

I'll see what ATA comes back with in terms of my options. If its too costly, I may just sell the cable and give/sell the right earpiece to someone.

Regards

Well there's a different way to look at it. I don't know if uppermids and treble smoothness is something you particularly care about, but I am personally very sensitive to bumps and dips in the frequency response in that 3k to 10k range. Unfortunately for me, the list of IEMs that have a treble that are *smooth* smooth is very short.

That's it, that's the list. Reviewers will tell you that treble peaks are measurement error, but in my experience I can actually hear them consistently.

Two pairs of E3000 set you off $50 (assuming you use the 1-year warranty service) and last you about 1-2 years. $150 will last you 3-6 years. Considering how high above their price points they are punching (5x its price according to them, which I think is an underestimate), it's not a bad investment at all for an IEM with qualities that are hard to come by at any price point, e.g. having no treble peaks, unmatched ergonomics, and being practically indestructible. Seriously, what other IEMs can survive a 5-feet drop?

 

[RikudouGoku]

Unfortunately for me, the list of IEMs that have a treble that are *smooth* smooth is very short.

Reviewers will tell you that treble peaks are measurement error

Who says this? The only peak you shouldnt pay too much attention to, is 8k due to the coupler peak (and past 10k+ isnt very accurate either).

 

[Edric Li]

Who says this? The only peak you shouldnt pay too much attention to, is 8k due to the coupler peak (and past 10k+ isnt very accurate either).

Um, you? Of the IEMs I've heard that has a peak at 8k on the FR, I can hear the glare. Maybe my ear canal is shaped like a coupler, idk. I don't trust results past 10kHz either, as I'd damage my hearing trying to hear them.

Of the ones you've posted, I've heard the Falcon Pro, and I can clearly hear the treble glare. What happens to FR that doesn't have a peak at 8k anyways? Do they lack in 8k according to the coupler peak theory?

 

[RikudouGoku]

Um, you? Of the IEMs I've heard that has a peak at 8k on the FR, I can hear the glare. Maybe my ear canal is shaped like a coupler, idk. I don't trust results past 10kHz either, as I'd damage my hearing trying to hear them.

Either you were unlucky in those 8k peaks being real. or you are just extremely sensitive to you prefer to have a dip there instead.

What happens to FR that doesn't have a peak at 8k anyways? Do they lack in 8k according to the coupler peak theory?

No peak there, like with the finals. Just means it is tuned to be like that, (especially when the rest of the treble doesnt really have any peaks either). So in reality, for people that arent sensitive there, it would be heard as a dip in that area.

Then again, the thing that makes this all very tricky is that, depending on the insertion depth. That coupler peak (normally at 8k) will be shifted upwards if its a deep insertion or shifted downwards on a shallower insertion.

As you can see here that 8k peak is shifted upwards with a deeper insertion. (this is why that area isnt that reliable IRL, since depending on your fit, that peak will be in different places.)

 

[Edric Li]

Either you were unlucky in those 8k peaks being real. or you are just extremely sensitive to you prefer to have a dip there instead.

No peak there, like with the finals. Just means it is tuned to be like that, (especially when the rest of the treble doesnt really have any peaks either). So in reality, for people that arent sensitive there, it would be heard as a dip in that area.

That makes sense. But do you actually hear a dip in the treble on, say, Etymotic Evo, VE Erlkonig or VE8? Do you hear *a lack of* sibilance and pierce, that you'd actually prefer if there was more glare? I genuinely don't.

Also, what's your opinion on different volumes of peak at 8k? Because some straight up peaks +10dB, some are more modest. They can't all be negligible, right? At some point that resonance has to be audible to everyone, I'd assume.

Then again, the thing that makes this all very tricky is that, depending on the insertion depth. That coupler peak (normally at 8k) will be shifted upwards if its a deep insertion or shifted downwards on a shallower insertion.

As you can see here that 8k peak is shifted upwards with a deeper insertion. (this is why that area isnt that reliable IRL, since depending on your fit, that peak will be in different places.)

That is true. Final also mentioned this in their MAKE series tuning tutorial.
https://snext-final.com/files/topics/696_ext_61_en_5.jpg?v=1539338914

I'd personally consider my preferred fit to be medium-to-shallow.

 

[RikudouGoku]

But do you actually hear a dip in the treble on, say, Etymotic Evo, VE Erlkonig or VE8?

Never heard those lol.

Do you hear *a lack of* sibilance and pierce, that you'd actually prefer if there was more glare? I genuinely don't.

its not sibilant to me. But on stuff like the E series, I do hear the entire treble as being very warm. (and E5000 being too dark.)

This is a factor of my library needing some treble air and also because the bass on the E series being quite loose/slow so that also affects the perception of the treble.
(then again, I am NOT a treble head as you can tell from my target)

 

[Edric Li]

Never heard those lol.

Oh you've never heard the Erlkonig? Man, gotta try those. They are the Susvaras of IEMs lol.

its not sibilant to me. But on stuff like the E series, I do hear the entire treble as being very warm. (and E5000 being too dark.)

This is a factor of my library needing some treble air and also because the bass on the E series being quite loose/slow so that also affects the perception of the treble.

I describe the E series as warm and dark too (and the E5000 being too warm and too dark lol), but for a slightly different reason. Since almost every IEM I've described to people (and people described to me) has a treble more peaky than the E series and the Vision Ears, calling them dark is the more correct language for efficient communication, as they are indeed darker than what most perceive as neutral.

However, once I've gotten used to treble of the E series and the Vision Ears, I realize that they aren't actually missing details. The treble is there, they are just not in my face like most of everything else. And when I switch from that sound to something that I would describe to people as neutral, neutral actually sounds too bright. It's like switching from an SACD to a CD; you never realize how glaring most CDs sound until you've gotten used to SACDs.

(PS. E1000 and E2000 actually has treble peak (visibly and audibly to me), so by E series I mean everything else in the series)

 

[RikudouGoku]

Oh you've never heard the Erlkonig? Man, gotta try those. They are the Susvaras of IEMs lol.

Not possible for me to try them.

However, once I've gotten used to treble of the E series and the Vision Ears, I realize that they aren't actually missing details. The treble is there, they are just not in my face like most of everything else. And when I switch from that sound to something that I would describe to people as neutral, neutral actually sounds too bright. It's like switching from an SACD to a CD; you never realize how glaring most CDs sound until you've gotten used to SACDs.

Again, the genres that I listen to (like Trance, OSTs, Hiroyuki Sawano) do need more treble quantity than the E series got. (not a matter of detail, but the tonality.)

However, that warmer treble does work great for genres like R&B and rock/metal. They are simply not that suited for my library, which is fine, just that people need to be aware of it and make their decisions correctly.

 

[Edric Li]

Not possible for me to try them.



Again, the genres that I listen to (like Trance, OSTs, Hiroyuki Sawano) do need more treble quantity than the E series got. (not a matter of detail, but the tonality.)

However, that warmer treble does work great for genres like R&B and rock/metal. They are simply not that suited for my library, which is fine, just that people need to be aware of it and make their decisions correctly.

IMO it depends more on the era than the genre. If you listen to 1995 trance, any excessive treble is painful. If you listen to 2015 trance, then yeah, you need a lot of air to balance out the loud kicks.

 

[the Ortherion]

Bough the final E500 to try and I was really impressed with it for the price I paid. Anyone have tried and modded them to a balanced plug? If so did you guys noticed any improvements?

What’s the natural upgrade from these? Preferably with changeable cables.

 

[Edric Li]

Bough the final E500 to try and I was really impressed with it for the price I paid. Anyone have tried and modded them to a balanced plug? If so did you guys noticed any improvements?

What’s the natural upgrade from these? Preferably with changeable cables.

If you want every good thing the E500 offers, there's not much options

If you are willing to sacrifice certain qualities about the E500, then that's another story.

 

[jprenaud78]

 

[Edric Li]

The "final" review, pun intended: A definitive comparison between Final E3000, E4000 and E5000.

I've been wondering about their differences, and whether they are due to the earpieces or the cables. I could not find a definitive answer anywhere, so I took the issue upon my self.

==========================================

Audio source:
Hugo 2, fed by AK300 via optical.

==========================================

Foreword and my personal preference:
If you are reading this, you are probably aware how well the E series compare against higher priced earphones. I cannot stress this enough.
- In my opinion, very few TOTL IEMs are actually flawless, both in terms of tuning imaging/soudstaging. VE Erlkonig is one. I can't think of another one off the top.
- Lots of TOTL IEMs have too much of a character in their tuning. Lots of them are too bright (Campfire, FW10000, Dita, and maaany more), lots of them are too dark (JH audio, etc), lots of them are too warm (Empire ears, Beyer, etc), lots of them are too cold (too many of them, including Final's own TOTL).
- Some are close to neutral, but the frequency response is not smooth and I can hear it (KSE1500, A18t, etc). Some are neutral and smooth, but sound flat and boring (UE18, PP8, QDC)
- There is a recent trend to make TOTL IEMs that are neutral, flat and not boring, by having a dip in the upper-bass/lower-mids region (Sony Z1R, N5005), aka the harman target curve. I hated it. It's a gimmick to make IEM have impactful subbass while maintaining good transparency. The lack of warmth only sound good at first listen.
- I personally value a nice, smooth, neutral, warm tuning more than imaging/soundstaging. To me, if the tuning is not close to my preference, I won't be bothered to hear how good the imaging/soundstaging is.
- The Final E series falls into this rare category. So if your personal preference/tradeoff is similar to mine, the choice among E3000/4000/5000 is only a matter of sound, not price, because they don't just compare well against other $200-300 IEM. They are better than a lot of $1000-2000 IEM out there. Paying $50 for E3000, $150 for E4000 or $250 E5000, are all incredibly good deal.

========================================

E3000/4000/5000 common attributes:
- Great ergonomics.
- Vented design to allow for more bass with the dynamic driver.

E3000:
- A nice, smooth, neutral, warm-ish tuning. Very hard to come by at any price point.
- E3000 is probably the most neutral, balanced of the three.
- E3000 is set back by its cable: the incredible balance is often times interrupted by treble glare. Common for IEM with a thin, low gauge cable.
- I hate treble glare.

E3000 vs E4000 (E4000 cable):
- With E4000 (E4000 cable), the treble glare is gone, thanks to the better cable. Treble quantity is also slightly less.
- E4000 (E4000 cable) has more subbass, thanks to the modified vent design. Think adding a subwoofer to bookshelf speakers. Music is now much more engaging and lively, with more depth to the sound. Remember I said E3000's warmth is almost already perfect? Yes, with E4000 (E4000 cable) we are close to the dangerous territory of "too warm."
- The imaging is slightly better thanks to the reduced treble sparkle.
- Everything else is the same.

E4000 (E4000 cable) vs E5000 (E4000 cable):
- E5000 (E4000 cable) has a tad more subbass. This is the only difference.
- My guess is that there is more dampening in E5000 for tuning purpose. I need to raise volume with the E5000 (E4000 cable) to match mid/treble quantity with E4000 (E4000 cable).
- To me, E5000 (E4000 cable) is one foot into the "too warm" category. I can totally understand if some one likes a bit more excitement in their music would go with E5000 (E4000 cable). For most of my music, E4000 (E4000 cable) have enough bass, some times more than enough.

E4000 (E4000 cable) vs E4000 (E5000 cable):
- E5000 cable pushes the mid range and treble backward. E4000 (E5000 cable) is much more bassy than E4000 (E4000 cable).
- I'm being nice to say that the E5000 cable pushes mid range and treble backward, as opposed to say that the E5000 cable veil the mid range and treble.
- Let's just say the E5000 cable is not an upgrade over the E4000 cable. I am not hearing a more refined imaging or a deeper soundstage with the E5000 cable. It takes away the air, takes away the vividness in the mid range, and adds boomy-ness.

E5000 (E5000 cable):
- The bassy E5000 body + the bassy (veiled) E5000 cable = so boomy, so little air. I can't breathe.
- E5000 (E5000 cable) is like a worse Xelento. Xelento has a lot of bass, too much for my taste, but at least the bass is clean. Xelento also got more treble to balance that out. E5000 (E5000 cable), not so much.
- Have you ever heard JH Roxanne with bass turned to 3 o'clock? This is close to that.

E5000 (E4000 cable) vs E4000 (E5000 cable):
- This sounds like a tough choice with the way it is going, but no, E5000 (E4000 cable) is better hands down.
- E4000 (E5000 cable) has more bass, mid bass in particular, than E5000 (E4000 cable), and a lot less air and a lot less vividness.

E4000 (E5000 cable) vs E5000 (E5000 cable):
- In my book E4000 (E5000 cable) is already quite boomy; E5000 (E5000 cable) is just unbearable.
- (Bass_E5000body - Bass_E4000body) < (Bass_E5000cable - Bass_E4000cable), if math helps.

=======================================

My personal preference:
1. E4000 (E4000 cable) >
2. E5000 (E4000 cable) >
3. E3000 >>>
4. E4000 (E5000 cable) >
5. E5000 (E5000 cable)

=======================================

My advice:
- If you like bass more than I do (which, trust me, is very unlikely), get the E5000 and stay away from its cable. You can get the E4000 cable for its nice ergonomics, but something nicer could probably improve other aspects of the sound.
- If your taste is similar to mine (neutral-warmish), get the E4000. You could swap in some cable that improves imaging and soundstage, but at the cost of (most probably) worse ergonomics.
- If you prefer a more neutral tuning, get the E4000 and start cable swapping. Getting a tad more treble or a tad less bass out of E4000 should not be a hard job.
- If you prefer a more neutral tuning and can bear occasional treble sparkle, get the E3000.
- If you don't like warmth in your music, or if you are a fan of the harman curve, don't get E3000/4000/5000.
- The E5000 cable perhaps is not as bad as I make it sounds like. For some IEM that needs more low frequency, it can help. But if that is your purpose, there are better options out there (with worse ergonomics) that does the job without taking away the air and vividness in the music.
- The E eartip is one of the most sub-bass-preserving eartip on the market. I like how it feels, so I didn't bother changing the sound from that direction. Just be aware that there are other eartip out there with less bass.

After living with all E series earphones for about a year, I think I'm ready to give a review/guide of the entire E series.


Timeline of the E series:
-------------------------------
2017/05/18: E2000 & E3000
2018/05/10: E4000 & E5000
2018/10/29: E1000
2019/09/03: E500


Cables of the E series:
-------------------------------
E2000 & E3000: unnamed cable; very thin (let's call it the thin cable for this review)
E500, E1000 & E4000: C112
E5000: C106


Comparing cables of the E series:
-------------------------------
The biggest take away is that C112 is a much superior cable to the thin cable and the C106. In fact, it beats out multiple $300+ cables in my rotation, including the popular Nobunaga Supreme. C112 is a midrange-centric cable. It does not reproduce upper-treble and sub-bass as well as the higher end cables, hence lacking in the sense of space and depth, but damn does it sound organic. The openness of the sound goes incredibly well with the open-back design of the E series.

Compared to the C112, the thin cable sounds congested. It has that typical treble splashiness and glare you'd expect from low quality stock cables.

For a comparison between C112 and C106, see the quoted review above.


Comparing the E series:
-------------------------------
I'd take any model with the C112 over those with the other cables. That puts my ranking at:
E500/E1000/E4000 > E2000/E3000/E5000

E500/E1000 vs E2000/E3000:
Very easy to explain: E500 is E1000 without the treble peak; E3000 is E2000 without the treble peak, and with more bass.
Comparing E500 to E3000 or E1000 to E2000 is IMO pointless: C112 is that much better than the thin cable; when the overall transparency and resolution are clearly separated by the cable, there's not much reason to talk about the (excellent) tuning of E3000.

E500 vs E1000 vs E4000 (C112):
Very easy to explain: E4000 is E500 with (a lot) more bass; E500 is E1000 without the treble peak.
Neither E4000 or E500 nailed the bass quantity IMO. The perfect amount of bass for me would be some where between the two. Treble peak isn't necessarily a bad thing on the E1000, depending on the hearing of the listener. The fact that E500 is only 250 JPY (2.20 USD) less expensive than E1000, yet E500 is the amazon.jp best seller for the search term "E1000" should tell you something about the general preference (of the Japanese listeners).

E4000 vs E5000:
See the quoted review above


My ranking of the E-series:
-----------------------------
E500 >= E4000 (C112) > E5000 (C112) >= E1000
>>>
E3000 > E2000
>>>
E4000(C106) > E5000 (C106)


See also:
and for a great comparison.

 

[Kiats]

Blast from the past: the sumptuous Piano Forte X. Thanks to @Uncle Wilson and Jaben SG for getting it restored by Final Audio.

 

[efftee]

Blast from the past: the sumptuous Piano Forte X. Thanks to @Uncle Wilson and Jaben SG for getting it restored by Final Audio.

Lucky you! I had to trash my PF-X because they couldn't repair it, ask me to buy new ones! I ended up getting the Lab 2 instead, which I cannot say for sure sounded better or even as good as the PF-X really. Oh well. Happy listening. buddy!