[bidn]

No, I don think there is such a big variant between units even with handcrafting. Final Audio is a high end company with pretty tight quality control. Well we will see after more testing. I am out of town now, when I return, I will test it with my other music players (AK240SS, AK380CU and LPG) to see if there is a difference. But at this moment, the Lab 2 is mesmerizing to me with that musical and big sound stage.

Hi Jalo,

unfortunately, I am sorry to say that in my case the extent of bass did not change, even after several hundreds of hours.
Did you get an opportunity to do more tests ?

bidn

 

[bidn]

Am wondering if any full size headphones produce the thick and heavenly sound of the PF IX and Xs?

Sorry for the late reply VoodooSamurai
(I saw you question then, but I had no time to post a reply until today),

well there are two headphones that have some of this heavenly (I like to call it "mystical") sound,
their FR curve is flatter and not as magically colored as that of the PF VIII-X,
but you win:
- so much in treble and bass
- hugely in passive isolation (they are closed, compared to the open PF), you don't hear the outer world anymore,
and this intimacy enhances the "mystical" experience


The first is the Sonorous X,
I recommend highly,
I love them so much that I have two of them, one in my bedroom next to my bed to listen in bed before sleeping, and one in my study,
voices are beautifully charming,
and the much larger Frequency Response, especially re. bass, greater makes e.g. Tournemire's Orgue mystique (truly mystical music with the TOTL PF and Sonorous) more majestic than with the PF.
(still despite the big price tag don't expect a top resolution of detail like you would get with a HD 800 or even a AKG 812..., maybe like the LCD-X? I have never done resolution comparisons because these were not the headphones I would use for detailed listening)

The second is the Sonorous VIII,
compared to the X, they are somewhat darker
you win a lot in price and in weight,
but sonically you mainly lose in most respects, especially in soundstage (small)

 

[Licht]

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&sp=nmt4&u=http://bbs.kakaku.com/bbs/K0000962311/SortID=20899152/&usg=ALkJrhgD0xyjxIBS9ElFK1uxyyLk4c1NJQ

I thought this was an interesting read and seems to suggest that the 2000/3000 are different but not better or worse even with the price difference. I like the black and the impression that the 2000 may be crisper and better for uptempo stuff.

Right away I thought 3000 but maybe the 2000 is more my style if indeed it "asserts vocals more and is more exciting" though that is just one opinion.

I think we need a Massdrop drop for both of them

final official direct shop recommends E2000 for pops/rock and dance/rhythm, E3000 for classical and jazz.
http://final-audio-design-directshop.com/cat_genre.html
(genre from top (written in pic so you can't use google translate) : 1st section- pops/rock, 2nd section- classical, 3rd section- jazz, 4th section- dance/rhythm)

 

[nycdoi]

so uhh i went to the local headphone store last week and came home with these...

i also demoed the F7200 but thats not important anymore

 

[rumina]

hi bidn

the final audio is a copper cable (ofc) that is silver coated, the one i mentioned has a solid silver core (norne therium). the change is not big and i like the final audio cable better. the balanced cable has a minor effect with the lab ii, the soundstage is a tad better defined. it's a very small change vs other earphones driven balanced, the silver core cable changes the sound a lot more vs the balanced cable. i'm not a big fan of changing the cables, the lab is perfect machted/tuned with the orgnial cable. if you wan't the last details with the lab ii go for a solid silver litz cable but you also loose this wide soundstage. the soundstage get's better in a technical sense but is not as nice matched with the character of the lab ii.

 

[Wyville]

To my taste, nevertheless, PF 8 is much inferior to 9 and 10. If there is a possibility it is better to immediately skip the PF 8 and buy 9.

What do the PF8 and PF9 sound like? I have been racking my brain for weeks since getting pressure issues from my CIEMs and find it very hard to find anything similar to what I think the PF are at a lower price range, so I might just have to consider saving up.

What I would love to have is a set of IEMs that have a similar open characteristic to open-back headphones without the bulk. Something with strong mids for vocals, a warm characteristic that is capable of reproducing classical music realistically. Not just the layering of the instruments, but also how realistic the instruments sound in order to convey the emotion of the performance. Ideally something that allows me to be so immersed in the music that I feel like I can walk through the orchestra and choirs. I get the impression the PF are designed with this in mind.

Also, how is the fit with these? I recently bought the VE Monk+ earbuds and while I like their sound they are an absolute nightmare to get a good fit. I guess that because the PF go in the ear they are much more stable and good enough to use for home listening, but from images I have seen there appear to be different ways these end up sitting in your ear depending on the ear shape.

 

[ninaraduga]

These earphones will suit your musical preferences. In my opinion, only a dynamic driver in PF can show classical music realistically (as well as vocals). The armature driver (even if they are 20 pieces, as they now shove in some CIEM) is still too flat to naturally convey the sounds. The armature was developed for people with problematic hearing, and then began to be used in the production of earphones. I have a very bad opinion about the ability of the armature to reproduce music realistically.

I walk with them down the street and they sit in my ears as if mounted in the ear)
But I let my friend listen to them, they drop out of his ear.

 

[Wyville]

Thanks @ninaraduga! If I decide they are my best option then I will certainly look around to see if I can demo them somewhere to make sure the fit works for me.

 

[jant71]

final official direct shop recommends E2000 for pops/rock and dance/rhythm, E3000 for classical and jazz.
http://final-audio-design-directshop.com/cat_genre.html
(genre from top (written in pic so you can't use google translate) : 1st section- pops/rock, 2nd section- classical, 3rd section- jazz, 4th section- dance/rhythm)

Well, the recommendations certainly don't tell the whole story That recommendation may just lead you to think the E2000 is bassier, or bass focused, or maybe U or V shaped. Two impressions so far give the idea it has more of a vocals focus and less bass or mid-bass or bass decay than the E3000 which makes is a bit quicker down low. The recommendation, like I said, made me think E3000 but real life reports may just be showing the E2000 is the one to choose. If indeed true most would not think the E2000 "crisper overall than E3000" or the more vocal oriented from the FAD recommendation.

 

[Jalo]

hi bidn

the final audio is a copper cable (ofc) that is silver coated, the one i mentioned has a solid silver core (norne therium). the change is not big and i like the final audio cable better. the balanced cable has a minor effect with the lab ii, the soundstage is a tad better defined. it's a very small change vs other earphones driven balanced, the silver core cable changes the sound a lot more vs the balanced cable. i'm not a big fan of changing the cables, the lab is perfect machted/tuned with the orgnial cable. if you wan't the last details with the lab ii go for a solid silver litz cable but you also loose this wide soundstage. the soundstage get's better in a technical sense but is not as nice matched with the character of the lab ii.

How coincident, I also have a Norne Therium 8 cores which I re terminated to balance 4.4 for my Sony 1Z. But I understand that you can now order a balance original cable from Final for the Lab 2 so you don't have to choose you can have it both ways. I am waiting for my Norne Silvergarde heavy gauge to pair with my Lab 2. If you have a high quality silver cable, I don't think the soundstage will suffer. I recently received a Norne Silver Draug for my Utopia and the sound stage increased by quite a bit compare to the stock copper cable.

 

[Jalo]

Hi Jalo,

unfortunately, I am sorry to say that in my case the extent of bass did not change, even after several hundreds of hours.
Did you get an opportunity to do more tests ?

bidn

Bidn, I have been listening to my Lab 2 for the past few months now and I do not notice any change across different sources. As I posted the frequency chart previously there is a slight slope on the low frequency down to 20 Hz. The decline is not big or sharp may be around 8 db or so making the sub bass not so pronounce. Some of the previous complaints or criticism of the Lab 2 is that there is no sub bass and I disagree with that assessment as proved by the frequency chart (post #7113) as well as my own testing using HDtracks Hifi test file and the Lab 2 is able to play audible file at 20 Hz even though at that frequency it is more a rumbling feel than sound but it is clearly there. The question to me is not whether the Lab 2 is capable to going down to 20 Hz, because it can. The question is whether one finds the Lab 2 produced enough sub bass to his liking but that is a personal preference thing that is different for each person individually. As long as the Lab 2 is capable of making down to 20 Hz, people can adjust the quantity of sub bass using eq to their liking. Personally I am happy as is with the Lab 2 as I can hear every bass frequency there is on the recording. To me it is the quality of the bass (the resolution, the layering, the tightness etc) of the bass that is more important to me that how much and the Lab 2 seems to have all that.

 

[Jalo]

I have a quick question for those that have the lab 2. During changing cables and when the cables are off the earpieces is there a way to identify left and right piece?

 

[rumina]

How coincident, I also have a Norne Therium 8 cores which I re terminated to balance 4.4 for my Sony 1Z. But I understand that you can now order a balance original cable from Final for the Lab 2 so you don't have to choose you can have it both ways. I am waiting for my Norne Silvergarde heavy gauge to pair with my Lab 2. If you have a high quality silver cable, I don't think the soundstage will suffer. I recently received a Norne Silver Draug for my Utopia and the sound stage increased by quite a bit compare to the stock copper cable.

looking forward for your impressions with the lab ii and the silvergrade cable, norne has some nice cables. i like the therium cable with the ak t8ie a lot.

you are perfect right about using equilizers, everyone has different ears. not only the frequency ranges changes with the years but you also don't hear any frequency at the same loudness, depends on your ears (some nice test aps for android are avaible), the overall volume and the head- / earphone type. i listen often with moderat or low volume and then the bass is not as prominent as playing with a higher volume. so i added a avalon ad2055 to my electrostatic desktop system to adjust the sound. it's amazing how big the changes are even when you only adjust 1-2 db up or down. even a iso norm exist "equal-loudness contour" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour .

simply sad, trust your ears adjust and have fun .

 

[obsidyen]

I'm also interested in E3000. Looks like great VFM.

 

[Licht]

Well, the recommendations certainly don't tell the whole story That recommendation may just lead you to think the E2000 is bassier, or bass focused, or maybe U or V shaped. Two impressions so far give the idea it has more of a vocals focus and less bass or mid-bass or bass decay than the E3000 which makes is a bit quicker down low. The recommendation, like I said, made me think E3000 but real life reports may just be showing the E2000 is the one to choose. If indeed true most would not think the E2000 "crisper overall than E3000" or the more vocal oriented from the FAD recommendation.

Just briefly but I’ve compared E2000 to E3000 at Yodobashi Camera today.
First time for me to directly listen to the both at once. (Have heard E2000 at final showroom and bought E3000 online)

E2000: Focused on vocals and mid-bass. Bit brighter than E3000 and slimmer sound. Younger sound maybe targeted for mass (non-audiophile) users.
E3000: Vocals goes bit distant compared to E2000, which means it might sound more spacious. Maybe more sub-bass and dense overall sound. Much modest warmer vocal but has somewhat more resolution in treble. Sound signature more like expensive audio system or TOTL headphones. Well balanced but still having final house sound transparent mids. I think it is a nice entry for audiophile sound signature taste in really affordable price (5,480 yen and 548 point (yen equivalent coupon given after purchase) in many shops, which means virtually under 5,000 yen.)

Before comparing them, I thought I might buy E2000, but after comparison audition I didn’t. Just wasn’t my taste.

From my memory difference between E3000 and E2000 is bigger than that of Sonorous III and Sonorous II (I auditioned them for ten days at my house).

Short comparison done using following tunes in ALAC by HF Player on iPhone 6 Plus + Mojo.
Masahiro Arita: Bach flute sonata in C BWV1033 1st mov. (His 3rd recording played by modern flute "Helmuth Hammig" in grey jacket album)
BABYMETAL: Akatsuki (heavy metal with female vocal starting with electric guitar solo)

I definitely preferred E3000 over E2000 for both tunes.
Really well balanced sound.

As I wrote before, sound signature of E3000 is like a mini-mini ETHER Flow. (yes, quality is apparently different but overall feeling reminds me of ETHER Flow compared on Mjolnir 2)


You can see many reviews retweeted by final staff’s twitter though they are in Japanese.
https://twitter.com/final_staff