[alflying]

Recessed treble for e17 the DAC?​

 
Hi all,
 
I am a happy owner of the e17 thus far, I know at this price I shouldn't be complaining, but one nitpick I have is the treble of the e17 when used as a DAC.  Especially when playing strings music it is lacking both in treble quantity and quality.  I did a quick rmaa loopback test and it confirmed my concern.  The e17 as a dac is sloping down sharply after 10khz.  This to me is disappointing considering the tight bass and sweet & forward mids.  
 
Agree/disagree?
 
e17 DAC vs other devices I currently own(Xonar DG, Clip+, and i9000) @ 16bit 44khz, click to enlarge
 

 

[alflying]

Now I wonder if there's issue with my usb setup or the e17 unit itself?
 
Seems like even the good old e7's treble won't slope down so sharply:
http://rmaa.elektrokrishna.com/Various/FiiO%20E7%20(Aux%20vs.%20USB,%20Vol.%2060,%20No%20Bass%20Levels,%20Var.%20Loads).htm
http://fs-digital.net/rmaatest.php?rmvid=123
 
Will be great if any of you can do a loopback test on your e17 as comparison, much appreciated.

 

[Tilpo]

Recessed treble for e17 the DAC?​

Hi all,

I am a happy owner of the e17 thus far, I know at this price I shouldn't be complaining, but one nitpick I have is the treble of the e17 when used as a DAC.  Especially when playing strings music it is lacking both in treble quantity and quality.  I did a quick rmaa loopback test and it confirmed my concern.  The e17 as a dac is sloping down sharply after 10khz.  This to me is disappointing considering the tight bass and sweet & forward mids.  

Agree/disagree?

e17 DAC vs other devices I currently own(Xonar DG, Clip+, and i9000) @ 16bit 44khz, click to enlarge

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's only down 1dB at about 15KHz. That won't have any effect on how much you can enjoy your music from this device. This 1dB down is below audible threshold (human loudness difference thresholds are high at those frequencies), and anything above 15kHz is not really going to matter in any case since hearing at those frequencies is not only imprecise, but there is also only low amplitude - high harmonic content of lower (<5kHz) notes at those frequencies.

In short: there is no way that a frequency response like that could cause any of the things you have described. I honestly doubt it may be audibly different from a complete flat FR, and if it is, it is bordering the threshold (meaning it's insignificant).


Regarding you second post:
The sharp roll-off is most likely caused by a filter, and is common for DAC's operating at 44.1/48

 

[alflying]

Thanks for the clarification, but really IMO treble should be the weakest link of e17 as a dac.  If even my clip+ can present a much better clarity at those high frequencies(by result of ABX tests), then there's no excuse.
 
That being said, e17 as a dac is superior to clip+ in all other categories I will say

 

[ClieOS]

Will be great if any of you can do a loopback test on your e17 as comparison, much appreciated.

I can confirm your result. Last time my RMAA measurement doesn't show any roll-off because I am only measuring the amp section. But I just re-measure with DAC-only and I can see a similar 3dB roll-off at 20kHz. Since the roll-off isn't caused by the amp section, I guess Tilpo is right that those roll-off is probably result of the filter used after the DAC stage to remove the >20kHz component (where the resampling noise is). Judging from the FR curve, could very well be a Butterworth filter that is generally recognized for being smooth and flat.

 

[alflying]

Thanks Clie, at least my e17 is working as it should 

 

[MikeB123]

My headphone jack has screwed up somehow, I only get sound from the left, when plugging it in before it goes in I get sound from right headphone and then once in fully nothing.

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

My headphone jack has screwed up somehow, I only get sound from the left, when plugging it in before it goes in I get sound from right headphone and then once in fully nothing.

Have you tried with a differnt input device? Like not just your ipod but with the computer? The cable may be faulty so try differnt cables and inputs, the E17 came with a USB and charging cable so try that with your computer through USB or try 3.5mm or LOD in AUX with your iPod. Any difference?
 
How about different headphones or using your headphones with the computer and not the E17 directly?
 
There were some qualms about the headphone jacks on the E17, and if I remember correctly James from FiiO said they were working on getting a supplier or someone to fix and get higher quality jacks for their devices. Some also had jack problems with the E17 if I remember.
 
If you tried the troubleshooting above to make sure it was soley the E17 and not your equipment then this:
 
 

Did you recently purchase the E17? If so, see if you can get an exchange with your local or regional dealer.
 
If not then you may have to contact FiiO at "Market@fiio.com.cn"
 
Depending on your device, where you bought it, FiiO from my observations has sometimes allowed regional exchanges in your area with their authorized dealers, but if that doesn't work and you can't fix it yourself with DIY parts(they also have even talked of providing replacement parts if you have the know how on fixing it). The last solutin that FiiO tends to go through last is directly RMA with FiiO in China, this is because they are far away and might take too long.
 

The above in the quote box do not reflect FiiO's official support or warranty statement on their site listed here:
http://www.fiio.com.cn/about/Asissit.aspx?MenuID=020902
 
The above in the quote box was soley information that James or other FiiO members have said they can do on head fi and also reflect personal observations on how FiiO would sometimes react to warranty and RMA. They are strictly my own obsesrvations of how FiiO deals with this stuff usually and may and can be filled with errors or updates. Contacting a FiiO member at the listed adress however should be done or contacting your dealer if the device is new as well should be done.
 
P.S, do not take the warranty page to mean the iron law, that is just there as FiiO's official statement in case stuff happens. They are very good at providing support for anyone with their devices

 

[alflying]

sorry wrong thread

 

[MattTCG]

I will confirm the treble roll off when the e17 is used a as a dac. It's the wink link to this very good device IMO. I've ordered the e9 and worry that it won't sound as good when docked. 
 
Can anyone comment on the sound docked to the e9? Are the hardware eq controls still functional when docked?
 
thanks...

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

I will confirm the treble roll off when the e17 is used a as a dac. It's the wink link to this very good device IMO. I've ordered the e9 and worry that it won't sound as good when docked. 
 
Can anyone comment on the sound docked to the e9? Are the hardware eq controls still functional when docked?
 
thanks...

If I remember correctly, with the LO bypass switch you could still use the EQ controls of the E17.
 
I didn't hear much treble roll of, but then again, I am subjectively biased. I like nice and forward vocals so my treble EQ was on +2 quite a bit. When I do impressions and reviews, I try to eliminate that, but yeah, to me , I didn't realy feel much.

 

[Tilpo]

If I remember correctly, with the LO bypass switch you could still use the EQ controls of the E17.

I didn't hear much treble roll of, but then again, I am subjectively biased. I like nice and forward vocals so my treble EQ was on +2 quite a bit. When I do impressions and reviews, I try to eliminate that, but yeah, to me , I didn't realy feel much.

Well, the treble roll off should be on the very border of audibility thresholds, and most likely below it. So no real surprise you can't hear it.

I won't go in a debate of bias, but I think it's far to say that any reported 'treble roll off' is most likely just in one's head.

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

Well, the treble roll off should be on the very border of audibility thresholds, and most likely below it. So no real surprise you can't hear it.
I won't go in a debate of bias, but I think it's far to say that any reported 'treble roll off' is most likely just in one's head.

I used the EQ too much so I didn't give a full account of there being one audible enough or not.

 

[alflying]

Quote:

Well, the treble roll off should be on the very border of audibility thresholds, and most likely below it. So no real surprise you can't hear it.
I won't go in a debate of bias, but I think it's far to say that any reported 'treble roll off' is most likely just in one's head.

You are right that it's at the border of audibility thresholds, but the thing is, some people like me can hear the difference.  How big of an impact that is to the overall sound depends on what type of music you're listening to.  For example, when I am listening to solo guitar or violin tracks I know something is definitely missing there, and once I pop my iem back to clip+ I get a big boost in high treble.  And no it's not in my head, it's just the quantity of high treble I'm talking about here, it's either there or not.
 
Like you said, some may notice it and some may not, I just hope to point this out so that those who are planning to buy this great device have a more complete picture of what they're getting.

 

[ClieOS]

If it is really important to you, it is still very easy to add back the 3dB on 20kHz via EQ.

In fact, you should do a blind test to see it you actually notice the missing 3dB or not. It should be easy if you can ask somebody to switch EQ on/off silently while you focus only to the music. I just listened to two different Kaki King's guitar tracks with / without +3dB and I absolutely can't tell a difference. In fact, it takes +20dB @ 20kHz for me to even notice there might be some difference (and I can't be 100% sure if there is a difference or I just want to hear a difference). Not too much of a surprise there since I doubt I still have much hearing left beyond 18kHz.