[jupitreas]

I apologize for my previous condescending language, I sometimes lose my cool.
 
As for your questions:
I have auditioned a number of 'boutique amps', although not the one you mention specifically. I personally have never heard any improvement over what the aforementioned Fiio E7/9 can offer, but I certainly wasn't looking for an amp that would color the sound for me (and some of those amps certainly did). With all this said, these were not blind tests so my subjective opinion on this matter is basically worthless, so instead of getting into details, I'd rather just say that I didn't notice any significant improvement over the Fiio devices.
 
As for soundstage and instrument separation: tell me how to measure either of these things and show me an amp that actually 'improves' these characteristics. I do believe that a higher dynamic range that a dedicated headphone amp offers can improve how these things are perceived, however, the lowliest and cheapest of amps that can drive a 600 ohm headphone certainly already have more than enough of that. Any more is likely to be placebo, I'm afraid. 
 
BTW: I'm not a Fiio fanboy, I'm merely stating that they have decently designed amps that perform perfectly well in most applications. 
Quote:

 

Are you speaking from experience, i.e. you have auditioned both the Fiio and the 'boutique amp' as I have or are you making a blind assumption? To say that there is no benefits to be had whatsoever is saying the Fiio E7/9 is the be-all and end-all in headphone amplification, typical subjectivist garbage aside this sounds like fanboyism.
 
Tell me, if a headphone amp adds soundstage and instrument separation would you consider that coloration?

 

 

[derbigpr]

Thanks. Best if I email the beyerdynamic support and ask which model they recommend for my amp.

 

[jupitreas]

They will most likely recommend their own 1000$+ amps
 
Quote:

Thanks. Best if I email the beyerdynamic support and ask which model they recommend for my amp.

 

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

I apologize for my previous condescending language, I sometimes lose my cool.
 
As for your questions:
I have auditioned a number of 'boutique amps', although not the one you mention specifically. I personally have never heard any improvement over what the aforementioned Fiio E7/9 can offer, but I certainly wasn't looking for an amp that would color the sound for me (and some of those amps certainly did). With all this said, these were not blind tests so my subjective opinion on this matter is basically worthless, so instead of getting into details, I'd rather just say that I didn't notice any significant improvement over the Fiio devices.
 
As for soundstage and instrument separation: tell me how to measure either of these things and show me an amp that actually 'improves' these characteristics. I do believe that a higher dynamic range that a dedicated headphone amp offers can improve how these things are perceived, however, the lowliest and cheapest of amps that can drive a 600 ohm headphone certainly already have more than enough of that. Any more is likely to be placebo, I'm afraid. 
 
BTW: I'm not a Fiio fanboy, I'm merely stating that they have decently designed amps that perform perfectly well in most applications. 

 

You're still holding the Fiio on this out of reach podium, other amps don't sound as flat as the Fiio therefore it is they that are colored. How do you know it isn't the E7/9 that is colored. Cheap amps and DAC's like the E7/9, soundcards, Chinese hybrids etc all use these op-amps, the circuit of the unit is essentially built around this chip. Therefore the op-amp is the sound you hear, switch the op-amp, hear a different sound. This is replete throughout head-fi, simple upgrades coming from switching chips yet you can't hear a difference either way, and any difference you do here you mark as coloring the sound.
 
To compare the E7/9 to my 336/DLIII I would say the Fiio sounds thin, lacks dynamics and musicality and isn't powering my 600Ohm headphones very well at all. You may likely compare and say my 336/DLIII is coloring the sound, giving it a theatrical presence etc.
 
As always it comes down to personal preference, it may even take time, heck I spent 4 years on head-fi before I heard a better source. All I'm saying is that the Fiio isn't the end of the line in amplification and source, and your idea of colored might just be the missing body.

 

[jupitreas]

 
Quote:

 

You're still holding the Fiio on this out of reach podium, other amps don't sound as flat as the Fiio therefore it is they that are colored. How do you know it isn't the E7/9 that is colored. Cheap amps and DAC's like the E7/9, soundcards, Chinese hybrids etc all use these op-amps, the circuit of the unit is essentially built around this chip. Therefore the op-amp is the sound you hear, switch the op-amp, hear a different sound. This is replete throughout head-fi, simple upgrades coming from switching chips yet you can't hear a difference either way, and any difference you do here you mark as coloring the sound.
 
To compare the E7/9 to my 336/DLIII I would say the Fiio sounds thin, lacks dynamics and musicality and isn't powering my 600Ohm headphones very well at all. You may likely compare and say my 336/DLIII is coloring the sound, giving it a theatrical presence etc.
 
As always it comes down to personal preference, it may even take time, heck I spent 4 years on head-fi before I heard a better source. All I'm saying is that the Fiio isn't the end of the line in amplification and source, and your idea of colored might just be the missing body.

I never said the Fiio amps are end of the line. They are cheap devices and although they are very decently designed, they still have some flaws and compromises. Nevertheless, I can say with some certainty that they are not colored simply because I have access to measurements of their performance.
Do you have similar measurements of the performance of your amp? Also, howcome their manufacturer doesnt publish any meaningful specs? All that I could find after some googling was that the amp has less than 2% distortion, which you should admit, is a pretty bad score compared to the E9's 0,005% distortion into high impedances. In fact, I bet that distortion is audible, perhaps it might even manifest itself as a certain coloration or 'musicality'
 
BTW: that op-amps sound different is a common audiophile myth. All modern op-amps sound the same assuming they are used according to their specification. People might claim to hear differences between op-amps but I am yet to see any actual scientific truth based on blind listening tests. It is much more likely that they are fooled by placebo or that they simply replace their perfectly suitable op-amps with op-amps that are designed for entirely different applications and therefore audibly change the sound when forced to operate in a circuit that they are not designed for.
 
Please realize that I never claimed there is anything wrong with modifying the sound of your headphones to suit your personal preferences. The thing is, I'd rather not waste a lot of money on an amp that colors the sound in an unpredictable way when I can own a transparent amp that drives my headphones perfectly well. I can then change the sound as much as I like using EQ or DSP.

 

[hngszehong]

Is there any recommendations of amp/dac or hybrid pairing good with the DT880 600ohm? Was using a Centrance Dacport alone from the laptop but it seems to be lacking some dynamic or power.
 

 

[jupitreas]

Based on CEntrance's website and the specs published therein, the DACport should be perfectly capable of driving the DT880 600 Ohm. How can you tell that it is lacking in dynamics or power? What are the symptoms?
 
Quote:

Is there any recommendations of amp/dac or hybrid pairing good with the DT880 600ohm? Was using a Centrance Dacport alone from the laptop but it seems to be lacking some dynamic or power.
 

 

 

[hngszehong]

I have to turn it almost 60-70% of the volume knob to get sufficient volume, and i started to feel it sounds a little bit congestion over the music i played. Maybe I could be wrong because i basically didn't spend enough time on it yet. So you think the Centrance Dacport is completely fine to drive it or it is merely capable? Is there something else which could get the best out of the DT880, like the Maverick D2 or so?

 

[jupitreas]

I am not sure what you mean by congestion? Do you hear clipping? 
I dont think the CEntrance Dacport should clip at 60-70% volume so perhaps it might be caused by the source?
 
Quote:

I have to turn it almost 60-70% of the volume knob to get sufficient volume, and i started to feel it sounds a little bit congestion over the music i played. Maybe I could be wrong because i basically didn't spend enough time on it yet. So you think the Centrance Dacport is completely fine to drive it or it is merely capable? Is there something else which could get the best out of the DT880, like the Maverick D2 or so?

 

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

I never said the Fiio amps are end of the line. They are cheap devices and although they are very decently designed, they still have some flaws and compromises. Nevertheless, I can say with some certainty that they are not colored simply because I have access to measurements of their performance.
Do you have similar measurements of the performance of your amp? Also, howcome their manufacturer doesnt publish any meaningful specs? All that I could find after some googling was that the amp has less than 2% distortion, which you should admit, is a pretty bad score compared to the E9's 0,005% distortion into high impedances. In fact, I bet that distortion is audible, perhaps it might even manifest itself as a certain coloration or 'musicality'
 
BTW: that op-amps sound different is a common audiophile myth. All modern op-amps sound the same assuming they are used according to their specification. People might claim to hear differences between op-amps but I am yet to see any actual scientific truth based on blind listening tests. It is much more likely that they are fooled by placebo or that they simply replace their perfectly suitable op-amps with op-amps that are designed for entirely different applications and therefore audibly change the sound when forced to operate in a circuit that they are not designed for.
 
Please realize that I never claimed there is anything wrong with modifying the sound of your headphones to suit your personal preferences. The thing is, I'd rather not waste a lot of money on an amp that colors the sound in an unpredictable way when I can own a transparent amp that drives my headphones perfectly well. I can then change the sound as much as I like using EQ or DSP.

 

So you're saying if it measures bad but sounds good, it is probably bad. But if it measures good and sounds bad it sounds good regardless.
 
I couldn't say it better than Currawong;
 
While it is easy to make equipment measure well when you feed it a sine wave, that doesn't very well equate to how it performs with a particular pair of headphones that have considerable variance in impedance vs. frequency playing a wide variety of music.
 
Maybe it is most telling that equipment favoured by people who choose by measurements alone isn't popular with people who have spent years evaluating the wide variety of equipment available.
 
To say that amps color the sound of headphones, is like saying I listen to amps and headphones color the sound of the my amp.

 

[jupitreas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif

So you're saying if it measures bad but sounds good, it is probably bad. But if it measures good and sounds bad it sounds good regardless.
 

If it measures bad, it might subjectively sound good to some who find the flawed sound to be personally appealing. If it measures good, it can't sound bad. It will simply sound neutral, without any coloration. If you find that to sound bad, you can always use an EQ or DSP. The advantage of using equipment that measures good is that you have a choice of what coloration you want to add to the sound. An amp that measures bad imposes its own, often poorly-documented coloration on the sound and this is not what an amp is supposed to do. An amp is simply there to amplify the signal, it is simply a tool to make sure that the speaker is getting enough power to perform according to specs.
 

I couldn't say it better than Currawong;
 
While it is easy to make equipment measure well when you feed it a sine wave, that doesn't very well equate to how it performs with a particular pair of headphones that have considerable variance in impedance vs. frequency playing a wide variety of music.
 

A headphone that has 'considerable variance' when driven by a neutral source is not a well designed headphone. There is no need to discuss such headphones and amp/dac makers certainly need not concern themselves with designing with such flawed headphones in mind. The particular headphone we are discussing, the DT990 600 Ohm, is not such a headphone. It performs just as intended with a neutral, flat source. The Fiio E7/9 are examples of relatively neutral sources.
 

Maybe it is most telling that equipment favoured by people who choose by measurements alone isn't popular with people who have spent years evaluating the wide variety of equipment available.

Not only is this an example of the logical fallacy argumentum ad populum, it also completely lacks any evidence of any sort to support the claim.
 

To say that amps color the sound of headphones, is like saying I listen to amps and headphones color the sound of the my amp.

The amp that does not measure well is like a filter between the source and the headphones. Therefore, what you are experiencing through your headphone is not the pure source but a colored variation of it. For some headphones, the particular coloration that the amp has might happen to sound good with the headphones' own coloration to some people. But not all people and not with all headphones. On the other hand, a neutral amp that measures well will not color the sound and will therefore sound neutral with all headphones. Once again - there is nothing wrong with modifying the sound of the source to suit your preferences, but why let a badly designed amp that costs hundreds or thousands of dollars do it for you in an unpredictable, often poorly documented way, when you can simply use EQ or DSP to achieve the same result? 

 

 

[koolkat]

Isn't the job of an amp to give enough juice to power the headphones, if the source is too weak?
 
Hi-fi means high fidelity.
 
So ideally, a perfect amp would power the headphones efficiently, without adding colouration (soundstage, warmth, sterility, etc).
 
 
 
An amp that measures bad can sound good/bad/neutral. But it might damage your headphones or source over time.
 
An amp that measures good can sound good/bad/neutral. But the risk of damaging your other audio gear is near zero.
 
 
 
Some amps measure bad but sound good, which is where the problem lies, imo.
 
 
 

 

[jupitreas]

Quote:

Isn't the job of an amp to give enough juice to power the headphones, if the source is too weak?
 
Hi-fi means high fidelity.
 
So ideally, a perfect amp would power the headphones efficiently, without adding colouration (soundstage, warmth, sterility, etc).
 
 
 
An amp that measures bad can sound good/bad/neutral. But it might damage your headphones or source over time.
 
An amp that measures good can sound good/bad/neutral. But the risk of damaging your other audio gear is near zero.
 
 
 
Some amps measure bad but sound good, which is where the problem lies, imo.
 
 
 

 
Well said. I don't think most of the amps out there that color the sound would actually damage headphones, though. If a device like that was to be released, the manufacturer would quickly get sued and the product would be discontinued. This is actually one of those rare positive aspects of consumerism With this said, there have unfortunately been some examples of damage being done to headphones by badly designed amps, some of which are quite expensive (fe. the Schiit Asgard has been known to damage drivers, a fault that the manufacturer has supposedly addressed by now).