[shrimants]

I was contacted by denon today. They said no headphones will be in until the new year. I'm off to find me a different pair.

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

Dude they're everywhere, two for sale in the for sale forum right now

 

[shrimants]

You misunderstand. I want to buy NEW for 250. JR gave me that deal and amazon had it once upon a time. i dont want used headphones.

 

[FunkMasterFlex]

Okay, well I guess that's your choice, why though? From what I understand headphones are like knives, sure it may be used, but it works just fine, just someone used it before you

 

[shrimants]

Because headphone drivers get burn in, just like knife blades. If someone used a knife every day for a few years and sharpened it properly, he may only have half of that original knife blade left, having sharpened off the rest.

Another example, I used bose on-ears from 2007ish till 2010. The sound quality was average at best, but over the years I noticed it degrading more and more. In 2010 they were to the point where any amount of bass or loudness in any range simply sounded like flatulence. I wore those things down into the ground and it hardly took any time. That is expected, considering they are bose. If I'm buying someone's headphones that they use all the time, then i use them all the time, Not only am I paying 250 for used headphones that will only last me half the time but I'm also unable to get any sort of warranty replacement on them.

I lucked out with my monster turbines. I bought them used on here for 50 bucks. The user "burned them in" for 80 hours after buying them from amazon. They were so worn in that I couldnt listen to them for more than 2 minutes before the driver would flex/bow outwards and all sound would stop. Luckily, he had the reciept and I tricked monster into replacing them. The next pair, I put 80 hours of use into them and they started flexing again. I sent them back. The next pair simply had the glue come off of the casing and even though I could have glued it together myself, i chose to let monster worry about it without voiding my 3 year warranty. 4 months later they told me I would have to wait an additional 3 months to get a pair back, and I became indignant enough that they gave me the control-talk model instead.

Unfortunately, they also broke at the controltalk module because monster is a bullcrap company that will minimize every cost possible to get the most money out of the consumer.

So in conclusion, bought new, used until dead took only 2 years ish, then I squeeszed another 2 years of listening out of them and simply dealt with the crap sound. Also, bought used, recieved crap but managed to get myself out of the situation for a full 6 months before finally it up as a loss.

And finally, if I could get them new for 250 form jr in a couple months, why, apart from impatience, would I spend that same amount on a pair of well used models? it doesnt make sense.

 

[lee730]

Dude. Just go to DAKmart and buy a refurbished pair. They will be cheap and they come with denon warranty. Also you then can buy 2 years of square trade warranty on them for cheap as well. That would be your best bet and you'd save money. If you go this route contact me via pm and I'll give you a coupon to use on square trade check out. My bad they are out of stock of the 2000. But they have the 5000 and 7000s in stock. That may be a bit above your price range. The 5000s are excellent though.
Quote:

Because headphone drivers get burn in, just like knife blades. If someone used a knife every day for a few years and sharpened it properly, he may only have half of that original knife blade left, having sharpened off the rest.
Another example, I used bose on-ears from 2007ish till 2010. The sound quality was average at best, but over the years I noticed it degrading more and more. In 2010 they were to the point where any amount of bass or loudness in any range simply sounded like flatulence. I wore those things down into the ground and it hardly took any time. That is expected, considering they are bose. If I'm buying someone's headphones that they use all the time, then i use them all the time, Not only am I paying 250 for used headphones that will only last me half the time but I'm also unable to get any sort of warranty replacement on them.
I lucked out with my monster turbines. I bought them used on here for 50 bucks. The user "burned them in" for 80 hours after buying them from amazon. They were so worn in that I couldnt listen to them for more than 2 minutes before the driver would flex/bow outwards and all sound would stop. Luckily, he had the reciept and I tricked monster into replacing them. The next pair, I put 80 hours of use into them and they started flexing again. I sent them back. The next pair simply had the glue come off of the casing and even though I could have glued it together myself, i chose to let monster worry about it without voiding my 3 year warranty. 4 months later they told me I would have to wait an additional 3 months to get a pair back, and I became indignant enough that they gave me the control-talk model instead.
Unfortunately, they also broke at the controltalk module because monster is a bullcrap company that will minimize every cost possible to get the most money out of the consumer.
So in conclusion, bought new, used until dead took only 2 years ish, then I squeeszed another 2 years of listening out of them and simply dealt with the crap sound. Also, bought used, recieved crap but managed to get myself out of the situation for a full 6 months before finally it up as a loss.
And finally, if I could get them new for 250 form jr in a couple months, why, apart from impatience, would I spend that same amount on a pair of well used models? it doesnt make sense.

 

 

[Jibbie]

Quote:

The 5000s are excellent though.


 

X2.  Most musical bass-oriented cans I've yet heard
 
 

 

[shrimants]

if by excellent you mean "entirely out of my budget" then you are most certainly correct

 

[Nazo]

I'll be the first to say that burn-in does exist, but you really only have to worry about headphones that have been used for a VERY long time with higher end headphones like these. Now, if it were a five year old AH-D1000/1001 or something it might be another matter, but with the D2000+ a year or two just means they've saved you the trouble of having to burn them in yourself. Higher end headphones are built to last and as long as they've been taken good care of, they'll last a very very long time. To use that knife analogy, it would take more than a few years to lose as much as 10% of the original metal (look at swords in the medieval ages -- a good well-made blade when properly cared for would last long enough to be passed on to the next generation. Mid-range and upper range headphones are more like those blades than like a cheap stainless steel pocket knife -- though they don't need nearly as much care to keep them "sharp.") After initial burn-in, the sound really shouldn't change that much even over the course of years, so even in that respect you don't have to worry really.


Anyway, I saw the post about "open D2000s" so immediately ran a search out of pure curiosity and ran across this thread which I'm sure has been discussed in this particular thread before, but, well, it's 100 pages now, so you get the idea... I'm wondering in particular about the effects of punching out that bit of cloth over those holes that he mentions helping with the highs a lot. Can anyone say how well this helps with the normal sibilance of the D2000s? I'm also wondering: what would happen if you just did that without actually cutting holes in the cups themselves? Has anyone experimented around with this? I think part of why I'm liking these Sennheisers so much more is their "veil" makes the highs less painful to my ears. It seems I'm sensitive to certain frequencies and any "sparkle" in those ranges just plain hurts. I have to turn the volume down low enough that I start losing balance in the mids and even the bass. (I'm kind of the same and, ironically, opposite of a "bass head." I do really love bass, but I need clear and accurate bass that isn't too far from neutral. I like to hear every individual note and I like to not have a headache or to lose my mids because of the bass. Ironically I'm extremely happy with my modded HD555s and their recessed bass because it's so very clear and goes so deep but really doesn't sound too recessed to my ears at least -- which is one of the big things going for the AH-D2000/5000 after all... Actually, I like the idea that it might make the bass a bit more recessed but even more controlled perhaps than the MarkL mod alone.)

The big problem is: punching holes in the cloth is an absolutely permanent modification. If I do that and it's not sufficient, I'll be stuck with something that quite possibly decreases value if I do ever decide to sell them (and I really am trying to convince myself, but they just are so hard to let go of, lol.) Cutting holes in the cups is particularly scary as it just doesn't get any more permanent and major than that, and I'm actually thinking I might try to rig up something instead (like say some sort of nut and screw combination to hold the drivers on without any cups at all for a while while I try it out.) Or maybe just hot glue since if you do it right you can usually just pull it off without harming anything using a pair of pliers. I can do something like that maybe to try this out without permanently modifying anything, but punching holes in the cloth can't be undone... Mine were already modded by Mark Lawton (bought from Lawton Audio directly) and I get the impression that some of what this mod does is essentially the same thing (for example, part of how it helps so much with the bass is just by reducing the distortion caused by the stock cups -- but then the damping material used in the MarkL mod does this already in a much less permanent manner) but obviously it goes above and beyond in some ways.

 

[FuzzyD]

I have never heard of DAKmart until you mentioned them but I do see they are listed on Denon's website. Do you have experience buying from them? Good customer service? Would you consider their headphones good as new? I buy refurbed Apple products and they are indistinguishable from band new with the same warranty.
 
*nevermind. Their seller ratings are abysmal. 

 

[lee730]

Well for me I never messed with the cloth material on the driver. I just initially removed my cups and placed them on the side, and then uncliped the ear pads and put them back on the driver but in a way that they don' clip on. That will allow you to try out the mod with no permanent changes. I now did permanently mod my denons as I had my wood cups drilled out to accommodate for the drivers to breathe. I have no regrets as these phones would have been on the for sale forum is not for this mod. Your safe bet though for taming the sibilance  would be using some sort of material between the driver and your ear cups to help. I find my denons with this mod to be a bit aggressive with the treble but it actually adds to the airiness pretty much resembling the EX1000 sound signature but the treble spike isn't as harsh as the EX1000.
Quote:

I'll be the first to say that burn-in does exist, but you really only have to worry about headphones that have been used for a VERY long time with higher end headphones like these. Now, if it were a five year old AH-D1000/1001 or something it might be another matter, but with the D2000+ a year or two just means they've saved you the trouble of having to burn them in yourself. Higher end headphones are built to last and as long as they've been taken good care of, they'll last a very very long time. To use that knife analogy, it would take more than a few years to lose as much as 10% of the original metal (look at swords in the medieval ages -- a good well-made blade when properly cared for would last long enough to be passed on to the next generation. Mid-range and upper range headphones are more like those blades than like a cheap stainless steel pocket knife -- though they don't need nearly as much care to keep them "sharp.") After initial burn-in, the sound really shouldn't change that much even over the course of years, so even in that respect you don't have to worry really.
Anyway, I saw the post about "open D2000s" so immediately ran a search out of pure curiosity and ran across this thread which I'm sure has been discussed in this particular thread before, but, well, it's 100 pages now, so you get the idea... I'm wondering in particular about the effects of punching out that bit of cloth over those holes that he mentions helping with the highs a lot. Can anyone say how well this helps with the normal sibilance of the D2000s? I'm also wondering: what would happen if you just did that without actually cutting holes in the cups themselves? Has anyone experimented around with this? I think part of why I'm liking these Sennheisers so much more is their "veil" makes the highs less painful to my ears. It seems I'm sensitive to certain frequencies and any "sparkle" in those ranges just plain hurts. I have to turn the volume down low enough that I start losing balance in the mids and even the bass. (I'm kind of the same and, ironically, opposite of a "bass head." I do really love bass, but I need clear and accurate bass that isn't too far from neutral. I like to hear every individual note and I like to not have a headache or to lose my mids because of the bass. Ironically I'm extremely happy with my modded HD555s and their recessed bass because it's so very clear and goes so deep but really doesn't sound too recessed to my ears at least -- which is one of the big things going for the AH-D2000/5000 after all... Actually, I like the idea that it might make the bass a bit more recessed but even more controlled perhaps than the MarkL mod alone.)
The big problem is: punching holes in the cloth is an absolutely permanent modification. If I do that and it's not sufficient, I'll be stuck with something that quite possibly decreases value if I do ever decide to sell them (and I really am trying to convince myself, but they just are so hard to let go of, lol.) Cutting holes in the cups is particularly scary as it just doesn't get any more permanent and major than that, and I'm actually thinking I might try to rig up something instead (like say some sort of nut and screw combination to hold the drivers on without any cups at all for a while while I try it out.) Or maybe just hot glue since if you do it right you can usually just pull it off without harming anything using a pair of pliers. I can do something like that maybe to try this out without permanently modifying anything, but punching holes in the cloth can't be undone... Mine were already modded by Mark Lawton (bought from Lawton Audio directly) and I get the impression that some of what this mod does is essentially the same thing (for example, part of how it helps so much with the bass is just by reducing the distortion caused by the stock cups -- but then the damping material used in the MarkL mod does this already in a much less permanent manner) but obviously it goes above and beyond in some ways.

 

 

[Nazo]

Well for me I never messed with the cloth material on the driver. I just initially removed my cups and placed them on the side, and then uncliped the ear pads and put them back on the driver but in a way that they don' clip on. That will allow you to try out the mod with no permanent changes.

I understand that part and I'm saying I would do something to this effect myself to try it out perhaps, but there's the problem of the highs -- the AH-D2000s already have highs that are just too sibilant for me at times to really enjoy my music. Thus:

I find my denons with this mod to be a bit aggressive with the treble

That's my point about the cloth material. As the person who wrote that thread describes, this mod actually makes the highs worse (not just more sibilant, but actually worse in some ways.) He found out that if he punched a hole through the cloth covering some particular holes, the whole sound was affected -- including getting the highs back to something more normal. My question is: how much effect does this actually have? Eg, could it actually help with the normal sibilance as well, not just helping to undo what the mod does? Unfortunately, there's no way to actually test THIS without permanently modifying the headphones in a way that might decrease their value if I were to try to sell them.

I'll probably just give up and stick to my Sennheisers ultimately. I'm actually really happy with them. They probably suit me better than the Denons can.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

I understand that part and I'm saying I would do something to this effect myself to try it out perhaps, but there's the problem of the highs -- the AH-D2000s already have highs that are just too sibilant for me at times to really enjoy my music. Thus:
That's my point about the cloth material. As the person who wrote that thread describes, this mod actually makes the highs worse (not just more sibilant, but actually worse in some ways.) He found out that if he punched a hole through the cloth covering some particular holes, the whole sound was affected -- including getting the highs back to something more normal. My question is: how much effect does this actually have? Eg, could it actually help with the normal sibilance as well, not just helping to undo what the mod does? Unfortunately, there's no way to actually test THIS without permanently modifying the headphones in a way that might decrease their value if I were to try to sell them.
I'll probably just give up and stick to my Sennheisers ultimately. I'm actually really happy with them. They probably suit me better than the Denons can.

I recommend you use some dampening material and that will fix your issue. If you are talking about hans? He did this and it fixed his sibilance issue. I think source will also have an effect on this as well. I don't have an issue with the denons being harsh. The treble is more prominent but I find it quite enjoyable (the aggression that is). I in no way could stand the treble spike on the EX1000 but on the denon it works out perfectly. Hans mentions some sort of dampening material which worked for him. I recommend you give it a shot before giving up. I considered my re-cabled silver IE8s (much better than stock) to be better than my Denons before I did the mod. The IE8s are gone now, still got my denons. I still can't get over how revealing these cans are now. Its ridiculously revealing. You throw crap at it and that is exactly what you'll get back. You throw a good recording at them and it will tear the music apart and drown you in it (in a good way that is).
 

 

[Nazo]

I recommend you use some dampening material and that will fix your issue.

Do you mean adding material such as Mountain Mist inside the cups or something? I did do that and it helps a bit with the bass (without that it gives me a headache even with relatively ordinary non-thumpy music) but only a very tiny amount with the highs. What's more, I think that when I recabled it with the Canare cable it got a tiny bit better due to that as well. Finally, I removed the soundstage mod (the plastic cup cutouts) from inside the earpads which also helped a bit. Now bear in mind that the MarkL mod itself means there's damping material inside the cups already. He has used regular rubberized asphalt (eg Dynamat, though I forget if it was that brand or another) plus some sort of vinyl damping material (which, according to some of the vinyl damping materials I've seen, at least is usually advertised to perform better per volume compared to rubberized asphalt) in the middle. Still, in the end, at rare times the Denons just get to be a bit too much for me. I'll admit the recessed mids were one of the biggest killers for me though, which is why I'll probably at least try hanging the drivers without the cups to see how I feel about the mod later. Still, any sort of such completely permanent modification is hard for me to get used to the idea of on headphones that cost me this much... (Especially if I do decide to sell them. I have to say that as blasphemous as it sounds, I am truly loving the sound of my modded HD555s...)

Like I said though, I suspect the real problem here is a particular sensitivity on the part of my own ears to certain higher frequency ranges where the Denons are more "sparkly" than some others such as these Sennheisers. I suspect it's mostly the really high frequencies in particular, but it's hard for me to put my finger on exactly where my issue lies with these. This is probably why the Sennheisers don't really sound "veiled" to me I guess. (That or all of the frequency shifting and stuff with the soundstage mod. I couldn't say. I got them kind of almost to play with and did the soundstage mod before they were even fully burned in almost just for the fun of it, so I can't compare their sound to stock HD555/HD595s.)

 

[lee730]

Quote:

Do you mean adding material such as Mountain Mist inside the cups or something? I did do that and it helps a bit with the bass (without that it gives me a headache even with relatively ordinary non-thumpy music) but only a very tiny amount with the highs. What's more, I think that when I recabled it with the Canare cable it got a tiny bit better due to that as well. Finally, I removed the soundstage mod (the plastic cup cutouts) from inside the earpads which also helped a bit. Now bear in mind that the MarkL mod itself means there's damping material inside the cups already. He has used regular rubberized asphalt (eg Dynamat, though I forget if it was that brand or another) plus some sort of vinyl damping material (which, according to some of the vinyl damping materials I've seen, at least is usually advertised to perform better per volume compared to rubberized asphalt) in the middle. Still, in the end, at rare times the Denons just get to be a bit too much for me. I'll admit the recessed mids were one of the biggest killers for me though, which is why I'll probably at least try hanging the drivers without the cups to see how I feel about the mod later. Still, any sort of such completely permanent modification is hard for me to get used to the idea of on headphones that cost me this much... (Especially if I do decide to sell them. I have to say that as blasphemous as it sounds, I am truly loving the sound of my modded HD555s...)
Like I said though, I suspect the real problem here is a particular sensitivity on the part of my own ears to certain higher frequency ranges where the Denons are more "sparkly" than some others such as these Sennheisers. I suspect it's mostly the really high frequencies in particular, but it's hard for me to put my finger on exactly where my issue lies with these. This is probably why the Sennheisers don't really sound "veiled" to me I guess. (That or all of the frequency shifting and stuff with the soundstage mod. I couldn't say. I got them kind of almost to play with and did the soundstage mod before they were even fully burned in almost just for the fun of it, so I can't compare their sound to stock HD555/HD595s.)

I think to tame the treble it would be more better to put the material into your ear pads, between the driver and your ears. That would make the most sense to me. Go the open-back thread and ask Hans what he did to help tame the treble. I'm sure that is what he did but its always better to learn it first-hand from someone who actually did the mod themselves. I really see no need to tame the treble at this point although I may end up giving it a shot down the road. I bet after you perform the open-back mod though you won't need to keep that material to lower the bass as it will be really tight and focused as is and if anything you don't want to take away from the bass.