Gary, thank you for the titanic task you have accomplished! I have followed the thread every day and I really admire your dedication.
I was wondering if you have changed Emotiva DC-1 HP amp from default setting (+2dB @ 20Hz) to linear setting.
One needs to open the case in order to change it via internal jumpers (2 of them). If you did not it would probably
explain a bloated base you experienced.
I think some people here are upset over Gary's findings for some reason. Atleast he level-matched and used the same gear throughout (or mentioned changes), and not solicit thoughts on the sound from others and form a 'general' opinion. Go read the other DAC comparo if you want that... Give Gary a break, he stated his process very well. Besides, he's obviously enjoying his music very much now thanks to a much better DAC.
I've been trying to think of something to post on this subject myself.
I think I'll just......
One thing I've gotten out of all this:
I will not agonize over my next DAC purchase, I'll just get a high quality DAC with the feature set I want.
For me personally, case closed.
Well if you use project86 as an example he will spend a good 1-2 months analyIng the nature of a single Dac. Gary has 15 + in his possession. So that would be over a year plus. Though project has said the differences are subtle. From my experience they are different. And thats the point of reviews to give you a dacs flavor. But in the end listen for yourself. Btw i have the DA8 and an Eximus DP1. Way different!
Yeah, looking back "brain magic" sounded much more sarcastic in my head at the time, but I guess it doesn't read that way.
In other sweeping generalizations... in terms of design considerations, a good power supply should totally outweigh all your other components in the device
Well if you use project86 as an example he will spend a good 1-2 months analyIng the nature of a single Dac. Gary has 15 + in his possession. So that would be over a year plus. Though project has said the differences are subtle. From my experience they are different. And thats the point of reviews to give you a dacs flavor. But in the end listen for yourself. Btw i have the DA8 and an Eximus DP1. Way different!
Yes, I agree that it's entirely possible to tease out sonic differences over a long period of time. Gary simply couldn't do that, I don't think it's fair nor reasonable to dismiss his findings when had, what, $10k+ of his own funds tied up? Do I take his findings with a grain a of salt? Yes, absolutely, we don't have anatomically identical ears, gear etc. That is a far cry to dismiss his findings and claim he has 'untrained ear' though. If someone can transport themselves into Gary's body, and listen to his exact rig and disagree with him, then I will take that as a credible debate. Otherwise, Gary is exactly right and we hold no ground to tell him otherwise.
Originally Posted by brunk /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Give Gary a break, he stated his process very well. Besides, he's obviously enjoying his music very much now thanks to a much better DAC.
Yeah, no kidding! He does try to find minute differences in gear through excruciating repetition. If i were him, I don't think I would ever listen to Californication ever again LMAO.
ChrisJ, actually I don't think this is trying to pick a fight at all.
I guess my poorly made point is that the application notes are a "minimum" way to get a DAC working. Calling it a "reference design" was perhaps a throwback to the way companies like NVidia do it. They release a video card that's the "reference" and then all their partners release products that either meet the minimum reference or more often have extra speed, features, etc.
So if you think of these various companies buying the chips from Burr Brown, Cirrus Logic, Sabre, etc... and then putting their engineers to work on "how can we make these things sound as good as we can and sell it at a certain price point" I would *expect* them to come up with different implementation using these chips. But as someone else said, maybe we looking at the difference between what a piece of test equipment can recognize, compared to our ears.
To pick on NAD for a moment, I can't imagine their engineers going to management and saying hey we have this great idea. We are going to build a new DAC and we're going to use PWM and its going to be awesome because we're recognized for some pretty awesome equipment. Oh and by the way it will sound just like a $500 Emotiva. Hard to picture. And yet based on Gary's testing its what we got.
But, we also can't downplay that the NAD M51 is probably well made, and looks good with their M50 player, M52 data server, M3 amplifier, etc. I had an opportunity the other day to see a Woo WA6 amplifier for the first time and my reaction was "damn that is a sexy looking amp". And that reaction had nothing to do with the technical specifications.
to all the people that claim to hear differences between dacs, please state whether the comparisons were done volume level matched by a mic/db meter. if not then it's a moot point and useless information. oh and matching by ear doesn't count.
i trust gary's comparisons a lot even tho he didn't use a TotL amp and "ultra revealing" headphones, simply because it is done volume level matched. also he did it with a fast switch so a lot less prone to memory errors/biases
to all the people that claim to hear differences between dacs, please state whether the comparisons were done volume level matched by a mic/db meter. if not then it's a moot point and useless information. oh and matching by ear doesn't count.
i trust gary's comparisons a lot even tho he didn't use a TotL amp and "ultra revealing" headphones, simply because it is done volume level matched. also he did it with a fast switch so a lot less prone to memory errors/biases
Well, I still believe these DACs are different, and some people can hear big differences, while some people can hear smaller differences. And different people put more focus on different aspect of the sound.
e.g.
1) Me vs. My friend.
Using headphone my friend can hear NO tonal difference between Benchmark DAC1 and his another DAC, I can spot which is which in 5 seconds. Because I have lived with DAC1 for 2 years.
But using speaker he can tell which is which using spatial clues, while I hear no difference in sound stage. Because he mainly listens to speakers, I almost never listen to speakers.
2) Myself, different time I have different hearing ability. Before 2006 my hearing was excellent. In 2006 I went to a Contraband (guns and roses) concert, and did put on noise reduction ear plug during the concert, BIG mistake. (1.5 hour of 110~120db in the theater). It permanently reduced my hearing ability in the very high frequencies, because the sound are not as airy, as realistic, transparent as before. I am still much better than average people at my age (did hearing test in hospital few times), but not as good as before.
Well, I still believe these DACs are different, and some people can hear big differences, while some people can hear smaller differences. ..... Gary is picking what's the best to him.
Well, I still believe these DACs are different, and some people can hear big differences, while some people can hear smaller differences. And different people put more focus on different aspect of the sound.
e.g.
1) Me vs. My friend.
Using headphone my friend can hear NO tonal difference between Benchmark DAC1 and his another DAC, I can spot which is which in 5 seconds. Because I have lived with DAC1 for 2 years.
But using speaker he can tell which is which using spatial clues, while I hear no difference in sound stage. Because he mainly listens to speakers, I almost never listen to speakers.
2) Myself, different time I have different hearing ability. Before 2006 my hearing was excellent. In 2006 I went to a Contraband (guns and roses) concert, and did put on noise reduction ear plug during the concert, BIG mistake. (1.5 hour of 110~120db in the theater). It permanently reduced my hearing ability in the very high frequencies, because the sound are not as airy, as realistic, transparent as before. I am still much better than average people at my age (did hearing test in hospital few times), but not as good as before.
yeah i understand, of course everybody hears differently. im not saying that gary's ears are the ultimate reference, but i guess im just reiterating the importance of volume level matching in dac testing...
I hope Gary still posts his findings after all this banter. Those discrediting him after spending so much time and money probably comes as a disheartening slap in the face.
I suggest the naysayers step up to the plate and do their own comparison in a similar manner.
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