[Andykong]

I'm so sorry for this comment again - I should have contacted Andi-Kong personally somehow.
Unfortunately, I have no experience with forums - I have only been a quiet follower until now!

I know a lot of quacks in all industries and I absolutely don't count Andi-Kong among them.

On the contrary, I consider his communication to be “exemplary”.
I consider the disclosure of design drawings until shortly before the disclosure of trade secrets to be unique and I value his honesty extremely - even if I feel personally misunderstood - but that is certainly "also" due to my inadequate ability to express myself in foreign languages.

I chose Cayin not least because of this extraordinary customer relationship.

Sure, with all the sympathy for Andi-Kong, the product was ultimately decisive and that speaks absolutely for Cayin

Sorry for this irritation on my part

I understand English is not your native language and have given the benefit of doubt in my first reply, but whey you continue and causing further damage, I feel the need to response because I don't want this to become a daily question until we launch N8ii.

To me, the question is not use of language, but more about attitude. So your method is a high-end approach, and other methods are deviated (or goodbye) from high-end. You have label everything other than your own approach in negative terms, and have put in all sorts of negative assumptions when you encounter a different approach.

For example, you are a purist, you only listen to your high quality music library, you don't stream, streaming will down grade quality, high-end DAP shouldn't devote resource to support streaming, streaming DAP is not high-end DAP.

Likewise, others can follow the same logic: I am a purist, I don't EQ, EQ will downgrade quality, high-end DAP shouldn't devote resource to support EQ, DAP with EQ is not high-end DAP?

Regarding your assumptions:
"I understand that Cayin gives in to the general customer request pressure and makes him capable of streaming - but that means that you have to install all the necessary "crap" (Android, WiFi chip, etc.) and say goodbye the next high-end player."
"I “think” I know how the N8II will be - I don't blame you for that"

What is the biggest stumbling block when someone want to develop a TOTL purist non-Android DAP?

Your answer is to act economically, gives in to the general customer request pressure.

My answer is availability of MCU. No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device.

DAP is a such a niche market that the semiconductor industry can't care less. The MCU of the current "purist" DAP are, in most cases, come from the MP4/video playback devices and non-Android "smartphone" that were commonly available in last (two?) decade. When Android become the industry norm of multimedia and mobile appliance, new MP4/video playback devices and smartphones are all Android based (let's skipped the iOS option for this discussion). The semiconductor industry responds effectively and devoted all their resource to develop MCU with Android system support in mind. As a result, No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device. DAP industry (I know, it is so small that I am not sure if we can all it an industry) is a downstream industry from mobile appliance, when the non-Android based mobile appliance declined, non-Android based DAP are having a hard time to stay competitive.

So can we use the old-time CPU to develop latest flagship "purist" DAP? Yes, but with serious drawbacks and bad user-experience.

Take N8 as example, since we are in the N8 thread. One of the biggest drawback of N8 is the maximum title in music library. When you conduct music scan, N8 will only read the first 20,000 titles. This is because of the limited CPU resource. The CPU of N8 and N3Pro (same CPU) is dated all the way back to 2014, and 20,000 offline music title probably means at that time, but when we have 1TB microSD card readily available (and purist users would like to have TWO microSD slot, with maximum 2TB storage in the DAP), 20,000 music is consider a big drawback. We have stimulated the music library with 30,000 songs, and the database after music scan amounted to over 30MB, that is a huge database for N8/N3Pro CPU and will slow down the responsiveness of some operation. That's why we decided to keep the music scan library limit at 20,000 title. For the record, the limit applies to music scan and all features based on music scan (playback by album, artist, genre etc), music library with over 20,000 titles will have full access to all songs through File Folder options.

Another CPU related problem is EQ. You can consider the EQ in N8 as a DSP function, it consumes a lot of processing power. At the moment, N8 can only perform EQ on 48kHz or below music files. If we expand the coverage to 96kHz or 192kHz, the N8 will suffer from inadequate processing power so this is another deadlock that we can't resolve.

And then we have the UI response problem when you are having a large music library. The Album art thumbnail will take several seconds to display when you scroll up and down at your music library. Again, a bottleneck from insufficient CPU power.

These are all well-known problems to N8 that I have explained many many time in HeadFi forum.

I don't expect users to understand the problems we are facing as product developer, they are not supposed to. Not knowing is not a problem, but making unjustified assumptions as if they are biblical truth, and repeated it day after day, is damaging,

 

[MACyaner]

I understand English is not your native language and have given the benefit of doubt in my first reply, but whey you continue and causing further damage, I feel the need to response because I don't want this to become a daily question until we launch N8ii.

To me, the question is not use of language, but more about attitude. So your method is a high-end approach, and other methods are deviated (or goodbye) from high-end. You have label everything other than your own approach in negative terms, and have put in all sorts of negative assumptions when you encounter a different approach.

For example, you are a purist, you only listen to your high quality music library, you don't stream, streaming will down grade quality, high-end DAP shouldn't devote resource to support streaming, streaming DAP is not high-end DAP.

Likewise, others can follow the same logic: I am a purist, I don't EQ, EQ will downgrade quality, high-end DAP shouldn't devote resource to support EQ, DAP with EQ is not high-end DAP?

Regarding your assumptions:
"I understand that Cayin gives in to the general customer request pressure and makes him capable of streaming - but that means that you have to install all the necessary "crap" (Android, WiFi chip, etc.) and say goodbye the next high-end player."
"I “think” I know how the N8II will be - I don't blame you for that"

What is the biggest stumbling block when someone want to develop a TOTL purist non-Android DAP?

Your answer is to act economically, gives in to the general customer request pressure.

My answer is availability of MCU. No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device.

DAP is a such a niche market that the semiconductor industry can't care less. The MCU of the current "purist" DAP are, in most cases, come from the MP4/video playback devices and non-Android "smartphone" that were commonly available in last (two?) decade. When Android become the industry norm of multimedia and mobile appliance, new MP4/video playback devices and smartphones are all Android based (let's skipped the iOS option for this discussion). The semiconductor industry responds effectively and devoted all their resource to develop MCU with Android system support in mind. As a result, No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device. DAP industry (I know, it is so small that I am not sure if we can all it an industry) is a downstream industry from mobile appliance, when the non-Android based mobile appliance declined, non-Android based DAP are having a hard time to stay competitive.

So can we use the old-time CPU to develop latest flagship "purist" DAP? Yes, but with serious drawbacks and bad user-experience.

Take N8 as example, since we are in the N8 thread. One of the biggest drawback of N8 is the maximum title in music library. When you conduct music scan, N8 will only read the first 20,000 titles. This is because of the limited CPU resource. The CPU of N8 and N3Pro (same CPU) is dated all the way back to 2014, and 20,000 offline music title probably means at that time, but when we have 1TB microSD card readily available (and purist users would like to have TWO microSD slot, with maximum 2TB storage in the DAP), 20,000 music is consider a big drawback. We have stimulated the music library with 30,000 songs, and the database after music scan amounted to over 30MB, that is a huge database for N8/N3Pro CPU and will slow down the responsiveness of some operation. That's why we decided to keep the music scan library limit at 20,000 title. For the record, the limit applies to music scan and all features based on music scan (playback by album, artist, genre etc), music library with over 20,000 titles will have full access to all songs through File Folder options.

Another CPU related problem is EQ. You can consider the EQ in N8 as a DSP function, it consumes a lot of processing power. At the moment, N8 can only perform EQ on 48kHz or below music files. If we expand the coverage to 96kHz or 192kHz, the N8 will suffer from inadequate processing power so this is another deadlock that we can't resolve.

And then we have the UI response problem when you are having a large music library. The Album art thumbnail will take several seconds to display when you scroll up and down at your music library. Again, a bottleneck from insufficient CPU power.

These are all well-known problems to N8 that I have explained many many time in HeadFi forum.

I don't expect users to understand the problems we are facing as product developer, they are not supposed to. Not knowing is not a problem, but making unjustified assumptions as if they are biblical truth, and repeated it day after day, is damaging,

Final statement: I'm sorry I'm damaging for you

It is true that I am a purist for whom the best sound is above all else.

But I respect any other opinion - not purists, I recommend streaming DAPs and sounded fun headphones myself.

As a purist, I had the hope that Cayin would use Cayin-OS again as the operating system in the N8II (as with the N8).
Your "hint" about streaming capability destroyed this hope but I know that everyone else will be happy and I'm happy for her

Most of the technical inadequacies you have listed are known to me.
As a purist, I don't use a music library - my brimming 1TB SanDisk Extreme Pro works great with the N8 folder option ;
As a purist, I don't use EQ or other sound enhancers either - I want that in the end (headphones) exactly what I put in at the front (in the form of HiRes recordings) comes out - “I” reject any sounding.
I don't even need a touchscreen - I love the puristic Questyle DAPs

My objection should only point out that there is at least one dinosaur of the non-streamers becoming extinct and inspire you to think about a purist N9!

Anyway, I will continue to enjoy my N8 + C9 and give “my” full buy recommendation!

 

[orifiel]

Final statement: I'm sorry I'm damaging for you

It is true that I am a purist for whom the best sound is above all else.

But I respect any other opinion - not purists, I recommend streaming DAPs and sounded fun headphones myself.

As a purist, I had the hope that Cayin would use Cayin-OS again as the operating system in the N8II (as with the N8).
Your "hint" about streaming capability destroyed this hope but I know that everyone else will be happy and I'm happy for her

Most of the technical inadequacies you have listed are known to me.
As a purist, I don't use a music library - my brimming 1TB SanDisk Extreme Pro works great with the N8 folder option ;
As a purist, I don't use EQ or other sound enhancers either - I want that in the end (headphones) exactly what I put in at the front (in the form of HiRes recordings) comes out - “I” reject any sounding.
I don't even need a touchscreen - I love the puristic Questyle DAPs

My objection should only point out that there is at least one dinosaur of the non-streamers becoming extinct and inspire you to think about a purist N9!

Anyway, I will continue to enjoy my N8 + C9 and give “my” full buy recommendation!

I’m also a non-streaming dinosaur, almost all my music is CD ripped or downloaded from stablished pages (HD tracks, Qobuz downloads, Bandcamp), but the streaming is also useful to me to discover new music, and i will prefer the most usable and stable operative system in a DAP, and if this system is Android…then let it be and develop the best for the next release.

 

[MACyaner]

I’m also a non-streaming dinosaur, almost all my music is CD ripped or downloaded from stablished pages (HD tracks, Qobuz downloads, Bandcamp), but the streaming is also useful to me to discover new music, and i will prefer the most usable and stable operative system in a DAP, and if this system is Android…then let it be and develop the best for the next release.

There is nothing to add

 

[MACyaner]

I understand English is not your native language and have given the benefit of doubt in my first reply, but whey you continue and causing further damage, I feel the need to response because I don't want this to become a daily question until we launch N8ii.

To me, the question is not use of language, but more about attitude. So your method is a high-end approach, and other methods are deviated (or goodbye) from high-end. You have label everything other than your own approach in negative terms, and have put in all sorts of negative assumptions when you encounter a different approach.

For example, you are a purist, you only listen to your high quality music library, you don't stream, streaming will down grade quality, high-end DAP shouldn't devote resource to support streaming, streaming DAP is not high-end DAP.

Likewise, others can follow the same logic: I am a purist, I don't EQ, EQ will downgrade quality, high-end DAP shouldn't devote resource to support EQ, DAP with EQ is not high-end DAP?

Regarding your assumptions:
"I understand that Cayin gives in to the general customer request pressure and makes him capable of streaming - but that means that you have to install all the necessary "crap" (Android, WiFi chip, etc.) and say goodbye the next high-end player."
"I “think” I know how the N8II will be - I don't blame you for that"

What is the biggest stumbling block when someone want to develop a TOTL purist non-Android DAP?

Your answer is to act economically, gives in to the general customer request pressure.

My answer is availability of MCU. No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device.

DAP is a such a niche market that the semiconductor industry can't care less. The MCU of the current "purist" DAP are, in most cases, come from the MP4/video playback devices and non-Android "smartphone" that were commonly available in last (two?) decade. When Android become the industry norm of multimedia and mobile appliance, new MP4/video playback devices and smartphones are all Android based (let's skipped the iOS option for this discussion). The semiconductor industry responds effectively and devoted all their resource to develop MCU with Android system support in mind. As a result, No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device. DAP industry (I know, it is so small that I am not sure if we can all it an industry) is a downstream industry from mobile appliance, when the non-Android based mobile appliance declined, non-Android based DAP are having a hard time to stay competitive.

So can we use the old-time CPU to develop latest flagship "purist" DAP? Yes, but with serious drawbacks and bad user-experience.

Take N8 as example, since we are in the N8 thread. One of the biggest drawback of N8 is the maximum title in music library. When you conduct music scan, N8 will only read the first 20,000 titles. This is because of the limited CPU resource. The CPU of N8 and N3Pro (same CPU) is dated all the way back to 2014, and 20,000 offline music title probably means at that time, but when we have 1TB microSD card readily available (and purist users would like to have TWO microSD slot, with maximum 2TB storage in the DAP), 20,000 music is consider a big drawback. We have stimulated the music library with 30,000 songs, and the database after music scan amounted to over 30MB, that is a huge database for N8/N3Pro CPU and will slow down the responsiveness of some operation. That's why we decided to keep the music scan library limit at 20,000 title. For the record, the limit applies to music scan and all features based on music scan (playback by album, artist, genre etc), music library with over 20,000 titles will have full access to all songs through File Folder options.

Another CPU related problem is EQ. You can consider the EQ in N8 as a DSP function, it consumes a lot of processing power. At the moment, N8 can only perform EQ on 48kHz or below music files. If we expand the coverage to 96kHz or 192kHz, the N8 will suffer from inadequate processing power so this is another deadlock that we can't resolve.

And then we have the UI response problem when you are having a large music library. The Album art thumbnail will take several seconds to display when you scroll up and down at your music library. Again, a bottleneck from insufficient CPU power.

These are all well-known problems to N8 that I have explained many many time in HeadFi forum.

I don't expect users to understand the problems we are facing as product developer, they are not supposed to. Not knowing is not a problem, but making unjustified assumptions as if they are biblical truth, and repeated it day after day, is damaging,

PS: Only that I was not misunderstood

Even if I'm damaging I won't let myself be driven out of this forum
I am a Cayin N8 and C9 owner - if I consider it necessary, I will continue to post here and beg for a puristic N9

“I think”, however, that our opinions have been sufficiently exchanged on this matter.

 

[MACyaner]

I’m also a non-streaming dinosaur, almost all my music is CD ripped or downloaded from stablished pages (HD tracks, Qobuz downloads, Bandcamp), but the streaming is also useful to me to discover new music, and i will prefer the most usable and stable operative system in a DAP, and if this system is Android…then let it be and develop the best for the next release.

There is nothing to add to this - means: that I can absolutely understand your point of view and therefore there is nothing to add to what you said.

 

[audionewbi]

From users point of view, purist dap means you can keep your dap for a longer time without worrying Andriod apps no longer supporting your needs, however once the app no longer supports your Andriod OS, you can still use your dap as dap alone using stock FW.

Cayin can be smart and implement what ibasso does, which offer a stand-alone OS (mango OS),for the cases where Andriod is outdated and no longer supports the app stores.

 

[Alino]

I’m also a non-streaming dinosaur, almost all my music is CD ripped or downloaded from stablished pages (HD tracks, Qobuz downloads, Bandcamp), but the streaming is also useful to me to discover new music, and i will prefer the most usable and stable operative system in a DAP, and if this system is Android…then let it be and develop the best for the next release.

Another non - streaming Mesozoic weird music animal here.

I am just looking to buy a N8 trying to take advantage of the incoming N8ii, of the people selling it to upgrade.

I heard and owned some Android DAPs but after hearing Questyle QPR1 and Lotoo (LP6k and LPGT) I never cared for any, anymore. I am one looking for best sound/ portability matched. Owning a 35 years CD collection of almost any recording I dreamt of, I cannot care less for streaming services.
Some books, magazines, forums and sometimes even youtube audios serve me well already when checking for new music. Waiting for live music and clubs activities to start again, too.

 

[Shawnb]

Did the N8ii ever get announced and if when we can expect it?

 

[Andykong]

Did the N8ii ever get announced and if when we can expect it?

The latest update is another round of PCB refinement before we can start trail production. With the current schedule, we can solve the problem by December, so we can expect a formal announcement before Christmas, with finger cross.

Sorry for the delays, if you are aiming at a new DAP for Christmas, I don't want to hold you up, please go ahead without N8ii for the moment.

 

[davidmolliere]

N8ii is clearly top of my list I'd rather wait and for Cayin to get it right, this will be the DAP for 2022

 

[vkenz]

The latest update is another round of PCB refinement before we can start trail production. With the current schedule, we can solve the problem by December, so we can expect a formal announcement before Christmas, with finger cross.

Sorry for the delays, if you are aiming at a new DAP for Christmas, I don't want to hold you up, please go ahead without N8ii for the moment.

the waiting game… n8ii

 

[TheHighlander]

N8II will be my next Dap. After 3 years with SP1000 and N6II time for a New Toy.

 

[Melitaboy64]

Apologies if this question has been asked and answered but has anyone experienced a situation where the N8 is saying 'No Music' where the player and the SD card have music installed? I love my N8 but it does not seem to play nice where an SD card is installed and I switch from internal to card and back. Or maybe that is something I should not be doing...?

 

[orifiel]

Apologies if this question has been asked and answered but has anyone experienced a situation where the N8 is saying 'No Music' where the player and the SD card have music installed? I love my N8 but it does not seem to play nice where an SD card is installed and I switch from internal to card and back. Or maybe that is something I should not be doing...?

In this page we solve a similar problem:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...e-dual-line-out.879025/page-238#post-16161665

Factory reset without the MicroSD, this solve this problem but erase all your playlist