[kubig123]

Since the N8 does not have optical out, how can I connect it as a transport the the CHORD HMS? See above inputs. USB, BNC,Optical

Also, is there WiFi capability for streaming from TIDAL or Qubos?

I never connected the N8 to a Chord but this cable should do the trick

https://shop.musicteck.com/collections/cayin/products/cayin-cs-40tc35-cable?variant=43828503886

 

[Andykong]

Oo I know, Im using it 3 hrs per day, five to six days per week. Im walking and taking trains to and from work plus Im standing 4 to 7 hrs at work.

You are a diligent user, definitely among the top percentile I came across, we are talking about 1000 hours per year, in par with a lot of professional users already. I think your choice of equipment has something to do with your pattern: you need DAP and headphones that are designed for long listening hours. I have come across equipments that sound really attractive for 5-10 minutes, but I don't find them enjoyable when I listen to the whole album.

 

[Mimouille]

Two questions only: for such premium music player ( $$ ), when the battery dies how can it be replaced and for how much?

You ask the same old questions on all DAP threads, how to replace the battery, why no OLED screen and so on and so on, for more than four years. And you never buy any, or contribute anything except to say Tera is the best player. You could be a bot.

 

[Mimouille]

But you do realize that in the last 4yrs since you've been asking about battery (and OLED display ), you are getting the same answer that nobody makes DAPs with replaceable batteries, and after design/sale cycle is done, manufacturers usually have enough spare parts to support their products within a reasonable warranty period. Then, it's done. Every company follows the same route. Nothing going to change, so you might as well continue using your minimalistic no-display wav-playback only high output impedance Tera Player because it was designed to withstand the nuclear bast and the testament of time, and it works for you, bud It seems that over the last 3-4 years, you have been asking same questions in every DAP thread, still looking for Tera Player replacement or alternative. It's quite understandable where you are coming from and your requirements of longevity, but years later you are still asking the same questions, still didn't find the replacement, and still disappointed with all the new releases. Am I correct? It is what it is, man, just a reality. You either have to compromise on something, or get a spare Tera Player for the future.

You're more tolerant than I am, must be a Buddhist.

 

[Andykong]

Thanks for sharing but just as an average listener I wouldn't be able to read your schematic but I still don't follow your logic behind device getting bigger
if we are to just take out components specific to 3.5mm lineout and 4.4mm line/phone out, unless the single, standalone nutube implementation requires bigger and more complex circuitry.

You really are persistent.

First of all, let's review our previous discussion on exactly the SAME topic:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...de-dual-line-out.879025/page-90#post-14663482

Back to your last question. In my first response to our request, I have stated that "if you are referring to a single-ended only high-end DAP, we probably won't attempt this market in near future."

Based on this this assumption, when you said "I wasn't really after SE but more interested in the tube implementation", the only outcome will be a Balanced DAP with balanced NuTube circuit, so when I said "You are talking about a super N8, not a mini N8", I am referring to a DAP with TWO Nutube in it. Unfortunately, you have ignored my point that Cayin will not attempt a high-end DAP in the first place.

We introduced i5 DAP back in 2016, it was a single-ended only DAP, and that was the time when balanced earphone is not as dominated as today. We have faced a lot of challenged and negative feedback, said we were unwise (some of the wording are quite rude) to not offering balanced output when our competitors are doing that, and dealers give up the product because "customers put it down when they know it doesn't support the latest balanced output". We have been there, done that, and "we can't afford the marketing cost to convince the general public on this issue. There is no point, from business point of view, to fight against the whole Personal Audio community". The last thing we can do is to continue our effort to deliver first class single-ended output in our DAP.

 

[musicday]

You ask the same old questions on all DAP threads, how to replace the battery, why no OLED screen and so on and so on, for more than four years. And you never buy any, or contribute anything except to say Tera is the best player. You could be a bot.

I am a wise man Mim
Have a nice day.

 

[Mimouille]

You really are persistent.

In my first response to our request, I have stated that "if you are referring to a single-ended only high-end DAP, we probably won't attempt this market in near future."

Based on this this assumption, when you said "I wasn't really after SE but more interested in the tube implementation", the only outcome will be a Balanced DAP with balanced NuTube circuit, so when I said "You are talking about a super N8, not a mini N8", I am referring to a DAP with TWO Nutube in it. Unfortunately, you have ignored my point that Cayin will not attempt a high-end DAP in the first place.

We introduced i5 DAP back in 2016, it was a single-ended only DAP, and that was the time when balanced earphone is not as dominated as today. We have faced a lot of challenged and negative feedback, said we were unwise (some of the wording are quite rude) to not offering balanced output when our competitors are doing that, and dealers give up the product because "customers put it down when they know it doesn't support the latest balanced output". We have been there, done that, and "we can't afford the marketing cost to convince the general public on this issue. There is no point, from business point of view, to fight against the whole Personal Audio community". The last thing we can do is to continue our effort to deliver first class single-ended output in our DAP.

And so you should. Many things in SE are at the top of their game. All the Chord stuff, Lotoo Paw Gold, etc.

 

[Andykong]

Andy, can you please provide a little more information on the difference in sound between the stainless steal and brass versions. Perhaps mentioning some songs in the process? Also, is there anyway you can further explain the advantage stainless steel would have with its anti-interference to high frequency, etc. vs the advantage of brass and its better grounding? Does this mean these are circumstances when one would sound better than the other? Thank you.

We believe the selection is more related to personal preference, it is unlikely to become a circumstantial decision for consumers.

Let's wait for the user impression from CanJam Singapore. We can provide as much technical explanation as possible, far beyond the common practice in this industry, but as product designer and manufacturer, we don't comment on subjective elements of our products.

 

[Andykong]

Since the N8 does not have optical out, how can I connect it as a transport the the CHORD HMS? See above inputs. USB, BNC,Optical

Also, is there WiFi capability for streaming from TIDAL or Qubos?

If you want to connect N8 to M Scalar, the easiest way is to go for USB Audio, N8 supports upto 32Bit/384kHz PCM and DSD256 from its USB Audio Out (through the USB-C port).

The alternative connection is to use S/PDIF coaxial. Cayin has embedded the S/PDIF bitstream into the SBU pins (A8 and B8) which was designated as sideband use. You can access the S/PDIF signal by

1. Proprietary Type C to RCA cable (CS-30TCR) and a RCA female to BNC adapter (preferably 75ohm), or
2. Type C to RCA Female adapter (bundled with N8) and a 75 ohm RCA to BNC coaxial Cable (something like this or this), or
3. Type C to RCA Female adapter (bundled with N8), a standard 75 ohm RCA coaxial cable, and a RCA female to BNC adapter (preferably 75ohm)

N8 is developed on a System on Chip (SoC) platform with a proprietary operation system, streaming service providers are unlikely to provide an API to install their service onto our proprietary system. To compensate that, we implemented LDAC (up to 24bit/96kHz) as an alternative. If you want to listen to Tidal or Qubos on N8, you need to use a Android mobile phone as streaming device, connect it to N8 through LDAC, and let N8 functions as a Hi-Res wireless DAC in the playback chain.

For more information of LDAC function in N8, please refer to our previous explanation here.

 

[Andykong]

But you do realize that in the last 4yrs since you've been asking about battery (and OLED display ), you are getting the same answer that nobody makes DAPs with replaceable batteries, and after design/sale cycle is done, manufacturers usually have enough spare parts to support their products within a reasonable warranty period. Then, it's done. Every company follows the same route. Nothing going to change, so you might as well continue using your minimalistic no-display wav-playback only high output impedance Tera Player because it was designed to withstand the nuclear bast and the testament of time, and it works for you, bud It seems that over the last 3-4 years, you have been asking same questions in every DAP thread, still looking for Tera Player replacement or alternative. It's quite understandable where you are coming from and your requirements of longevity, but years later you are still asking the same questions, still didn't find the replacement, and still disappointed with all the new releases. Am I correct? It is what it is, man, just a reality. You either have to compromise on something, or get a spare Tera Player for the future.

You ask the same old questions on all DAP threads, how to replace the battery, why no OLED screen and so on and so on, for more than four years. And you never buy any, or contribute anything except to say Tera is the best player. You could be a bot.

Thank you, I was about to reply, but since I am not as smart as the other DAP leaders and my English (as secondary language) is not as fluent as other contributors, I better lay low and let you two (my heroes ) take it up.

On the other hand, we had some "heated" discussion along this topic back in November (~page 80), I browsed through them quickly and confirmed "again" that I can lay low because I don't have any new suggestion to this topic:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...de-dual-line-out.879025/page-80#post-14602193
(the discussion goes on and on for a few pages)

On the other hand, we can sell the Li battery if you are within ground transportation from Cayin factory:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cay...de-dual-line-out.879025/page-51#post-14422466

 

[Andykong]

And so you should. Many things in SE are at the top of their game. All the Chord stuff, Lotoo Paw Gold, etc.

And we will.

 

[Andykong]

The big question... side buttons any different?

The knobs remain unchanged, but the Dignis case makes a lot of different.

 

[twister6]

The knobs remain unchanged, but the Dignis case makes a lot of different.

I second that. With a new Dignis case it's a whole new experience of how N8 feels in your hand and how you use the side knobs.

 

[Andykong]

I would like to share the result of a battery charging i have performed last week.

1. Discharge the N8 to zero battery capacity (playback till it shut off itself)
2. Charge it with a QC compatible charger (any 18W QC charger should works fine)
3. Take a photo when I plug in the charger, set countdown timer to 15 minutes and take a photo again to keep track of the battery readings
4. Repeat (3) for 12 readings (3 hours of charging)

The result are as follows:

So I have charged the N8 from 0 to 90% in three hours. The charging rate is fairly linear at 7% per 15 minutes, right up to 2hr 45min. The charging rate will slow down after that, and eventually changed to pulse charging in the final 1% or 2%. This is more or less reconcile with the common practise to Power Management of Quick Charger. According to lab test, it will take you 1 hour to charge from 90% to 100%. In my opinion, it is very inefficient and might even shorten the battery life. I know some users insisted in charging the battery upto 100%. In fact I have received numerous complaints when the battery count "stop" at 99%. There is a good reason for the QC power management slow down the charging current gradually after ~85%, so please change your habit and and unplug your charger before 90%.

On the other hand, please don't discharge the Li battery to an extremely low level. Lithium Polymer battery does not have memory effect, it can be charged regardless of its current capacity and will not introduce negative effect to battery performance. Shallow discharges and recharges are better than full ones, because they put less stress on the battery, so it lasts longer. Regular full discharges or repeatedly charge up to 100% will speed up the aging of the battery.

Base on this table, I recommend you to charge the N8 when you are are somewhere around 20% (14% to 22%). Charge it for around 2 hours if you are using a QC charge, this will bring you up to somewhere between 80% to 85%. This is an effective pattern and 2 hours is relatively acceptable to most users.

I use a 61W charger in this test because I frequently need to charge two QC device concurrently. Any 18W QC compatible charger should achieve similar result, and I recommend you go for charger that support 12V1A or 12V1.5A,

Last but not least, when the battery has been used without a complete full discharge after a long period (approximately 30 charging cycle), it might result in inaccurate gauge and lead to incorrect battery capacity estimation, a full discharge followed by a full charge immediately will calibrate the gauge.

 

[Andykong]

Now that I've gotten some of my other obligations away, I've finally been able to listen to the N8 more dedicatedly despite having it in my hands for the past 6 weeks. My main comparison would be against the NW-WM1Z as I feel these two are more similar than with the DX200 (the other DAP I have in my hands). I just realised that I never shared my 1st impressions of t he N8 in this thread but on the King of DAPs thread instead.

Listening today, I feel that my original impressions still stand whereby the N8 is just more expansive compared to the NW-WM1Z. Mind you at least to my ears, the NW-WM1Z was never really did create a wide soundstage but was strong in depth. Other DAPs such as the A&K and even the DX200 to my ears created a wider soundstage. However the N8 seems to do both of creating a wide and deep soundstage with a lot of headroom. For the DAPs I've personally heard, to this date, I don't think any other DAP that's been able to create such a large soundstage that's comparable to desktop-based systems, therefore I'm impressed nevertheless. In terms of detail retrieval, the N8 pulls as well as the top tier DAPs as one would expect; furthermore its presentation of the details is very smooth indeed.

Tonally there seems to be a little bit more bass depth or warmth in the NW-WM1Z over the N8 - if the NW-WM1Z is autumn, the N8 would be spring. It's just different - to me tonal balance is entirely user preferential rather than one better than the other (such as technical excellence). The N8 does across the entire FR well however. Bass goes deep and has a decent impact, mids are crisp and clear, and the trebles extend high and smooth. Whilst the NW-WM1Z may be more warm and the DX200 a little more neutral, the N8 would fit in between (and on the opposite, I'd put the AK series more "clinical"). However for the aforementioned expansive virtual space N8 creates, I find that I focus more on that rather than the tonal balance of the DAP - comparing back 'n forth, that larger virtual space just grabs my attention more than the FR response making the N8 more enjoyable.

For the non-sonic aspects of the N8, whilst its a large and heavy DAP, it's lighter than the NW-WM1Z and my former AK380+Piggyback Amp module. I actually don't mind the N8 not having a 2.5mm TRRS. Personally I'm sold with the 4.4mm balanced anyway and think the DAP market should head toward that direction. Further with the N8 supporting the Korg NuTube is a positive move. It's really having multiple amps in one and Cayin has done a really fantastic job in the dampening vibrations around the NuTube. For those who have not experienced the NuTube, it is -very- sensitive to vibrations which results in your typical vacuum tube pings. The window for the NuTube glow is super cool though.

The N8 aren't without flaws however (at least to -user- preference), e.g. I'm not so crazy about its shape as to me its reminiscent of the AK380, and the UI, whilst smooth, reminds (or reveals to) me of an Android interface. Again this could be user preference however I'm more comfortable with the Sony-styled UI. As for the dials and buttons on the N8, they work well...it's just a matter of getting used to. I've not tested battery life however I have noticed that it does drain faster than my other DAPs when it is off. Also, charging it fully from my iMac Pro (Thunderbolt 3 -> USB-C), it took ~14-16 hrs. Not too sure if this is the norm.

I really wish I had more time to do a more proper thorough review of the N8 however this is a demo unit of which it'll have to go to someone else. I'm likely going to send it off this weekend so have only a few more days with it. My fault for not being able to do anything with it for the first 6 weeks.

Edit: oh this is still on FW 2.0 if it makes any difference. I've not upgraded it to 2.2

Thank you so much for your detail impression. This is the most comprehensive comparison between N8 and WM1Z I have come across, I like your descriptive but not conclusive approach because you leave enough room for the reader to make up their mind.

Unless otherwise stated, Cayin firmware has very little (or zero) effect to sound signature. This has been our practise since our first DAP.

I have posted a battery charging test just before this reply. We have installed a 7000mAH battery into N8, it will take ages to completed charged from standard 5V1A chargers. You'll get better result with QC compatible charger.