[brunk]

  I think we should make it so that anything pre dsp is vintage, (no dolby or video) so I can post my near 20 year old treasure

Post it! I'm all eyes and ears 

 

[Mr. Morden]

It's probably easier to say "Vintage Silver Faced" when referencing that era of before the mid-'80s since primarily everything was silver. I guess you could call the slightly newer but still older stuff "Vintage Black Faced". But then those black versions of the old '70s gear and the silver versions of newer vintage gear would throw a wrench into the naming. Maybe we should do like cars, where there's the "Muscle car era" being the late '60s through much of the '70s, and the "Classic car era" which you could generally say is the '50s up to the late '60s. Calling anything BPC is a bit inaccurate, because I've had some SMC - Silver Metal Crap. Some of the lower end models of old equipment was not too hot. I had a base model Hitachi and it worked alright for the bedroom but when I got a deal on a better amp that thing was outta there. Had that real cheap feeling tuner knob, weighed nothing, sounded just ok at best. Also some BPG - Black Plastic Gold (Ok this one sucked, but I couldn't come up with anything better) - good sounding gear like this. NAD comes to mind, though I'm moving away from NAD for reliability reasons (none of my stuff has issues but I'm concerned they might develop it).
 
Going on that idea of before DSP doesn't catch it all though. Some brands continued to make stuff with no digital anything on their equipment on into the '90s and still to this day. Like one of those Emotiva preamps has nothing but analog inputs on it, that paired with one of their power amps has no DSP involved anywhere.

 

[DemonFox]

 

  I think we should make it so that anything pre dsp is vintage, (no dolby or video) so I can post my near 20 year old treasure

Post it! I'm all eyes and ears 

 
+1
 
Post it! 
 
 
 
Thanks,
 
 

 

[DemonFox]

 
 
- Team Sansui

 
 
OOOooooo Shiney!! What is that?? Sansui what?? Is that Vintage?? Its looks beautiful 
 
 
 
Thanks,
 
 

 

[Silent One]

 
The model is a G-22000 either 1978 or 79, still have to nail it down but it's one or the other. The speaker taps are located on either side of the receiver, which is 25" wide. So, my pigtail cable have a 36" split.

 

[DemonFox]

  Warm in LF, bright in HF.
 
You can check http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=551482&highlight=onkyo
 
I saw you have lot of phones, why not adventure in vintage Iron and decide yourself like your phone journey?. Low models are not expensive, after exploring all brands, then you can go after TOTL of your favorite brand.

 
That's exactly what I intend on doing! I really want to hear how they sound with my headphones plus I have some Infinity towers and bookshelves that need some love and putting them in my office would be bad *****!! I like the looks of that Sansui but I have no idea what it is or how much it cost but I'm loving the research!! 
 
 
Thanks,
 
 

 

[Trav]

I use this guy - originally from Bestbuy, but found on CL. Attractive, well built, heavy, and BIG. I had my KR-9600 on the middle shelf and the SX-1980 on the bottom shelf and it had room for more. I think it's 59'' wide and 28 deep on the bottom.

Wow Phoenix I just picked up almost the exact same rack for $6.99 at my local thrift shop. I love it.

 

[brunk]

   
The model is a G-22000 either 1978 or 79, still have to nail it down but it's one or the other. The speaker taps are located on either side of the receiver, which is 25" wide. So, my pigtail cable have a 36" split.

I'd bet if you open it and dig around with a flashlight and magnifying glass you'll find a date on a component somewhere.

 

[Silent One]

During the Spurs - Lakers, I'd better hit CL!

 

[Meewoo]

  A random but related question, why do people have such an obsession with Pioneer gear? I never have figured that out. Not knocking them since I have a few old Pioneers but I don't get why people seem to collect them and pay such outrageous prices (Seen the prices for SX-1250s lately?). Their sound is not bad, but it's not the best out there either. Nothing wrong with that, but if I hadn't got my Pioneers for cheap there's no way I would pay their going prices. Some of them cost as much as McIntosh and some high-end amplifiers, which seems silly to me considering what you get compared to those.
 
 

  Hmm, well I hope so. If I ever sell my Pioneer A-27 integrated I'm hoping that will help it sell, since it is legitimately rare. I'm more of a separates guy or at least integrated amps, so while I enjoy receivers to a degree they're always second to a nice integrated or a good pre/power setup. Rarely do see much in the way of vintage power amps, which is a shame as I know there were some good ones. Something in me just would feel so very dirty and wrong for paying the kind of money things like SX-1250/80s go for considering it's just a well built mass market receiver and high end amps go for the same or less that easily outperform it.
 

 
Mr Morden, after a long thought, I couldn't help trying to answer some your questions. But first, I must claim that I am not a Pioneer fan (or I don't care Pioneer sound at all) even though I have Sa-9100, SX-1250, SX-727 and another A-?? (and I had SX-1010, SX-650, SX-1050, SX-D7000, Sa-9500II in past three years). Second, I am not receiver fan also, now I go integrated or separate exclusively. So I am more like you.
 
Since we all here, we all know 70's provided excellent audio products. Comparing 70's receivers and amp to today's audio product in certain price range, most us agree that 70's products has more quality. And Pionner products belonged to the top tier of good quality brands. And Pionny really had a good marketing strategy teem which kept consistent 2 years period product updating and set price in the right place. If you check same wpc products on Ak, pionner's price is lower than Marantz and Sansui but higher than Kenwood, technics and many other small brands. Their  price just kept them as a premium brand but with more price attractions, which resulted they sold largest volume in 70's (according many Aker). Those consistent 2 years product updating played big role 2, it showed how confidence the company had in its product and kept them a premium image in public (not like Kenwood (or Marantz) played catching game).
 
Those largest sale also created the largest fan base, eventually it provides wide availability and rich information from any sources today. So Pionner vintage products are popular today. Then look today's home audio brands, Sansu and Kenwood are long gone. Pionner, Marantz, Yamaha are still here. So newcomers can still get in touch with those brands and developed new fan base. Combine those and many other factors, Pioneer may still have the largest fan base here in USA. High demand with adequate supply, we have active market, which can eventually lead to some high price models. Did you notice Marantz also fetches a lot of money nowadays? Yamaha isn't such big layer in 70s. I conjure that if Sansui is still liv in Home audio market today, Sansui may fetch higher price than Pioneer today.
 
As for popularity of receivers, do we refer 70's "receiver war" other than "amp war". More receivers produced than integrated or separates in 70's, and easy access in today's market makes receiver seams more popular here or on Ak.
 
As for your A-27, it's on the edge of silver era, I though few people here even know this great amp since many here only know SA models. I think I posted A-27 eBay link 2 weeks ago here, but seams even Pioneer fans didn't care. The very good nice condition a-27 ended with 610.01, and I was the one who bid $600.01 and the third highest bid with $566.  Someone just got very good deals. BTW, A-27 was sold same price as Pioneer SX-1980 in 1981. Are you only mad because your A-27 doesn't bring same money as SX-1980?(joking

)
 
 
Quote:

 
This is a point I made a few months back.  All the vintage receivers I have heard are lacking compared to similarly priced vintage high end gear.  So, I had to ask myself - am I truly in this for the sound?  The answer kept coming back YES!  So I have changed my strategy to look for one of McIntosh 2105, Levinson 27.5, or and old Krell KSA 80.  Not many around so must be patient.  Also will need an adapter for HPs - but worth it.   That said - I still have an old, fully restored, Sherwood 7100a on my nightstand just to keep on foot in the water.   Also, I will admit that if you are going to dump some big coin into a vintage receiver, the old upper end Pioneers are nice - but I will not have the cash for an SX1980 any time soon.
 

 
I do think sound preference is personal, I haven't heard Levinson or Krell. I did heared some Macs, but the sound is just not my cup of tea. I really don't understand that why people regard mac are so high premium brand. I did agree they are premium since middle 80's. But their early generation SS stuff (70s), they were not even sold as high price as Sansui (correct me if I am wrong). Another high end brands today suffer that they lack a product which can let people experience. Not like Pionner SX-1980, people can really get experience from lower model and dream to pursue it. Mark Levinson usually had lower sibling Proceed let people experince their house sound, but proceed was long gone too.  Does Krell have lower sibling?
Another thing, do we really have a whole system which let us hear the 10-30% audio improvement with huge price increase in amps?
In used market, do I really want to spend around $1000 into Krell and may later find out I don't like it sound at all? On the other side, I can buy Pionner sx-850 for $250 and experience it's sound and may later find I like it very much. Besides, those Krell and Levinson rarely popped up locally since they are high end.
 
 
 
And I do wish you gentlemen let sleepers sleep!!  If more people buy popular brands with higher price, there are few people compete with me in sleepers. Haha, just my evil thoughts!!

 
Cheers, we all like this hobby!!!

 

[DefQon]

   
Whew...where do I sign. My only concerns with the hd800 was:
 
1. Could I afford the right amp for them?
 
2. Would I have an issue with the brightness?
 
It seems based on your estimation, that even my sx890 would be a good pairing. The sx1050 would even be that much better. 
 
LugBug...as time permits would you mind adding some specifics on the hd800 as compared to the hd650. We can move this conversation to pm if too off topic. 
 
thanks...

 
I'll give you my 2cent's when I had the HD800 on some of the vintage Marantz amp's I've tried. It glossed over the sound signature and took too much away unfortunately. 

 

[Mr. Morden]

   
Mr Morden, after a long thought, I couldn't help trying to answer some your questions. But first, I must claim that I am not a Pioneer fan (or I don't care Pioneer sound at all) even though I have Sa-9100, SX-1250, SX-727 and another A-?? (and I had SX-1010, SX-650, SX-1050, SX-D7000, Sa-9500II in past three years). Second, I am not receiver fan also, now I go integrated or separate exclusively. So I am more like you.
 
Since we all here, we all know 70's provided excellent audio products. Comparing 70's receivers and amp to today's audio product in certain price range, most us agree that 70's products has more quality. And Pionner products belonged to the top tier of good quality brands. And Pionny really had a good marketing strategy teem which kept consistent 2 years period product updating and set price in the right place. If you check same wpc products on Ak, pionner's price is lower than Marantz and Sansui but higher than Kenwood, technics and many other small brands. Their  price just kept them as a premium brand but with more price attractions, which resulted they sold largest volume in 70's (according many Aker). Those consistent 2 years product updating played big role 2, it showed how confidence the company had in its product and kept them a premium image in public (not like Kenwood (or Marantz) played catching game).
 
Those largest sale also created the largest fan base, eventually it provides wide availability and rich information from any sources today. So Pionner vintage products are popular today. Then look today's home audio brands, Sansu and Kenwood are long gone. Pionner, Marantz, Yamaha are still here. So newcomers can still get in touch with those brands and developed new fan base. Combine those and many other factors, Pioneer may still have the largest fan base here in USA. High demand with adequate supply, we have active market, which can eventually lead to some high price models. Did you notice Marantz also fetches a lot of money nowadays? Yamaha isn't such big layer in 70s. I conjure that if Sansui is still liv in Home audio market today, Sansui may fetch higher price than Pioneer today.
 
As for popularity of receivers, do we refer 70's "receiver war" other than "amp war". More receivers produced than integrated or separates in 70's, and easy access in today's market makes receiver seams more popular here or on Ak.
 
As for your A-27, it's on the edge of silver era, I though few people here even know this great amp since many here only know SA models. I think I posted A-27 eBay link 2 weeks ago here, but seams even Pioneer fans didn't care. The very good nice condition a-27 ended with 610.01, and I was the one who bid $600.01 and the third highest bid with $566.  Someone just got very good deals. BTW, A-27 was sold same price as Pioneer SX-1980 in 1981. Are you only mad because your A-27 doesn't bring same money as SX-1980?(joking

)

 
I'm not sure everyone would agree that vintage gear has more quality than modern gear. Modern equipment made some large improvements that made them more reliable and better sounding than their vintage counterpart. The advantage of vintage is the lower cost, which is not always exclusive. The example of stuff like the SX-1250 comes to mind ($500-600 on the low end and $1,200-1,500 high), compared to an Emotiva XPA-200 with a USP-1 preamp. The Emotiva set will run you just under $800, new with warranty and will get to you in one piece. A Pioneer SX-1250 will be $500-600 with $100+ shipping or possibly the higher scale and still this much, and has a higher chance of being poorly packaged by an eBayer. No warranty, high chance of being unrestored unless you buy the high end spectrum. Lets say you did so they have the fairest footing to compare, now you've paid $1,000+ for a vintage amp that is of course like new. It's rated at 160 wpc, and will perform quite well. The XPA-200 is rated at 150 wpc, and will perform excellently considering advancements in amplifier design (There are really too many to list, on a critical level). 10 watts will make no audible difference so both will drive most anything with ease. If you splurged for the XPA-100 monoblocks, you'd be right at $1,000 roughly. Now you'd go up to 250 wpc along with having a pair of monoblock amps.
 
If you could get the SX-1250 for a lot cheaper, it would be a great competitor on bargain but at its going rate it makes sense for nostalgia fans more than audiophiles. Kind of like vintage muscle cars. They're really cool looking, very different, and represent a different era of car design. But compare even a restored Camaro with a 350 to a brand new Camaro SS. The new Camaro will outperform it, handle better, have more luxury features than the original Camaro and will cost less, both in purchase price and maintenance (Carbureted vs. Fuel injection - no real comparison here). I wouldn't knock anyone for buying the classic Camaro because it's an icon and it's cool looking. But to do it under a presumption that the performance is better than a modern car is naive. Vintage power amp designs were more cutting edge for their time than any receiver, thus why I still think some vintage power amplifiers are great respectable choices for high end sound. The receivers were always a step behind the same brand's own power amplifiers, sometimes that still meant the receiver was great (A la SX-1250). Look at the Spec-2 for the comparison to the SX-1250. Actually the Exclusive M3 was similarly power rated, but a more elaborate internal design. 
 
I'll say this though, the amount of watts any amp produces is hardly the indicator of quality. I'll kindly point to First Watt amplifiers to exemplify this, but Class A amps and heck even just AB amps are great examples of this. High watts are truly only needed if you have some highly inefficient speakers or are driving to excessive volume levels. Not trying to knock it, but Pioneer is not really a premium brand in the sense you're saying. That would've been Luxman, McIntosh, Accuphase, and similar. I hardly think this means the stuff that wasn't premium wasn't still good, but it shouldn't be confused for something it wasn't. As far as the A-27 goes, it breaks with the traditional Pioneer look. For me I love this, because I don't care for the normal Pioneer look - far too many knobs and buttons. The A-27 has more of a H/K kind of light silver powder coated kind of finish that looks great IMO. I actually had almost every piece in the Series 20 line (M-22, M-25, C-21 preamp, F-28 tuner, D-23 crossover network, and the A-27 which I kept). The power amps are exotic looking and were sold in limited markets. I have paper work for the Series 20 gear and the original owner bought it all from New York (I even have the dealer cost of some of these models, only includes Series 20 gear though). I recall it was said the Series 20 line was where they told their engineers to make the amp they wanted, unlike the normal Pioneer units which were made for specific markets and price points. The SX-1980 was just obscene and I'm sure a bunch of people were sold on the fact it was such a huge receiver. Some people love receivers, and it's one of the higher powered ones (Technics took the trophy as I recall though with the SA-1000 at 330 watts per channel). Personally, I'd be terrified of the reliability of a vintage receiver with that much power as that's way too much to cram into one box.
 
I was part of a rather lengthy discussion on a thread about the modern vs. vintage debate at AK, I'm decidedly a fan of quality modern gear but still love vintage gear for their looks and build quality. But paying modern gear prices for vintage performance isn't something I'd be willing to do. Heck, almost all of my vintage amps have been bought for under $100 (This includes the Series 20 gear if you divide the price per piece). Really nice modern gear just doesn't show up on the used market for great prices like vintage gear does, used modern gear offerings are usually the big retail box receivers and usually their cheaper lines. But sometimes nice modern pieces show up for great prices - I bought an Integra DTR 9.9, Integra's $2600 flagship 7.1 receiver from 2009 for $100 from an audio installer who got it after they installed a system in a customer's house. They were selling older, lower end (By comparison) Marantz 7.1 AVRs (Talking circa 2004) for $150. I still have no idea why, but am not complaining. I had to buy the remote for it, but it was only $50. Listening to the Integra right now, it's the receiver for my PC system 

 

 

[LugBug1]

 
 
- Team Sansui

Lookin very smart! TEAM SANSUI!!!

 

[LugBug1]

Some great posts MR Morden and Meewoo, nice reading 

 

[LugBug1]

   
I'll give you my 2cent's when I had the HD800 on some of the vintage Marantz amp's I've tried. It glossed over the sound signature and took too much away unfortunately. 

Always respect your posts bro
 
But I must argue a point here because its a headphone that I've now got quite a bit of experience with and especially with vintage gear. First, I'm not sure what amp or amps you tried with them but 'rubbish in - rubbish out' applies more with this headphone than any other that I've tried. When paired with a lower end early marantz for e.g. Indeed the sound is poop. Dull, unfocused and lifeless. Agreed. But it's defo not the fault of the headphone, but the amp that is to blame. 
 
I'm not saying the HD800's are the greatest hp or the most transparent out there. But they are very transparent. The better the vintage amp, the better they will sound. It's really as simple as that. But even say, the lowly SX550 will give you a full bodied and musical experience with the HD800's that beats many headphone amps - if you want that type of sound. But I must stress here that this seems to be the sound that most people strive for when they fork out thousands on high end tube amps. The HD800's on most mid price hp amps that I've heard give you the highly detailed, fast and verging on 'clinical' sound that may work when you plug LCD2's or hifimans in. But the Transparency of the HD800's as always lays everything bare and shows the coldness of these brighter than neutral amps. 
 
So, the way I see it is, you can build a Crack amp or pay through the nose for an amp that is capable of a little warmth over plain neutrality or you can plug them into an old amp that has a similar sound signature as tubes.
 
But of course not all vintage amps will synergize. This would be madness to claim it, if they all sounded the same then we'd all just own one. The two amps that work for me and the HD800's are my Sansui 551 and my NAD3020. Both amps are a little warmer than neutral but with a refinement that the HD800's tease out. Loads of subtle details, that are never thrust at you or annoying. The bass is deep and although Its not as tight as through a dedicated amp, to me it is more pleasing and full sounding. 
 
Some argue that the high impedance of vintage amps (average 120ohm) is too much for the 300 ohm Senns. But I would argue that any good tube amp will have a similar output. And there is no argument when it come to tubes with the HD800 and how good they sound. Vintage amps for me give me a kind of 'tube sound' that fills the drivers with lovely- lovely musical treacle that encompasses my inner being and coats it with a warmth that only a mother can give to a child that is cold and unhappy. A feeling of inner strength and 'wholeness' not dissimilar to a lovers embrace as you become one in the moment. A Mozart crescendo for e.g can catch you unaware, gently cupping its warm hand round your scrotum and squeezing without any pain caused as Don Giovanni gets his comings. A silky sweep of violin from the slender fingers of violinist Miss Hahn can cause a shiver up your back ending in an afflicted like twitch in your left cheek. The same kind of twitch you get when you finally get to scratch your anus after it has been causing you annoyance and irritation all afternoon at the shopping mall - making you mince rather than walk normal.. Causing unwanted stares from security guards and protective mothers alike.. An itch you were unable to relieve until you had no choice but to check into an empty elevator at M&S to finally get to work on it. Haaaaaah thats better! I could go on... But I best not. The plot is lost