[Lvivske]

IMO fine tuning ones system via cable upgrades should be near the finish line. First your transducers, then your amp, then your DAC, and then finally cables. To my ears the first three components all made a pretty substantial difference, whereas cables , although I could def hear a difference, it wasnt as dramatic of a change as the other components.

tbf in your video you do describe a power cable change as having a 'significant' and 'dramatic' impact on sound..

but yeah this is end game tweakertown discussion

 

[Monsterzero]

tbf in your video you do describe a power cable change as having a 'significant' and 'dramatic' impact on sound..

but yeah this is end game tweakertown discussion

It was/is a dramatic difference. My whole system went into 3D mode when I put the power cables in. However those changes were heard on a 8500.00 DAC and my old Glenn OTL. I don't know what type of benefit one would get from changing out a stock cable on a 50 year old amp or receiver, especially if the receiver isn't in tip top shape SQ wise.

Still feel that biggest differences one can have in your system is by swapping speakers or headphones, but the power cable upgrade was a real eye opener for me.

EDIT: I should mention that I really wish I heard no difference at all. Seriously. Spending hundreds, if not thousands on cable upgrades is the most boring and unexciting way to spend money in this hobby.

 

[Lvivske]

It was/is a dramatic difference. My whole system went into 3D mode when I put the power cables in. However those changes were heard on a 8500.00 DAC and my old Glenn OTL. I don't know what type of benefit one would get from changing out a stock cable on a 50 year old amp or receiver, especially if the receiver isn't in tip top shape SQ wise.

I'd be more inclined to question what benefit a well designed source would get from a slightly better made power cable tbh, especially with the law of diminishing returns at that point. With an older amp there's at least a clear weak link in the design, potentially affecting components that also draw a lot of current. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[SpeakerBox]

I'd be more inclined to question what benefit a well designed source would get from a slightly better made power cable tbh, especially with the law of diminishing returns at that point. With an older amp there's at least a clear weak link in the design, potentially affecting components that also draw a lot of current. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ya, mainly a safety issue for me to provide a grounded case.

 

[TTmaven]

SIDEBAR QUESTION:

New to the forum in general, I am not finding what I am looking for - namely a discussion on whether I would want or need a dedicated headphone amplifier if I am using headphones with vintage audio gear, such as an older Sansui amp from the late 70s. I just love electronic gadgets, but I also hate spending money without good cause - because that needlessly erodes my gadget budget on dumb stuff.

I have tried various search strings, but I only get discussions on this or that headphone amp and why it is so good with a cell phone or mp3 player and so forth - nothing debating the relative merits of full size stereo components versus small dedicated headphone amps. The best answer I have receive so far on a forum dealing with building audio gear, is "you need one if you don't like the way it sounds." Logical, but not particularly helpful.

If this is the wrong forum or place to ask, I would appreciate a polite redirection to the proper venue. Thank you. TTmaven

 

[Monsterzero]

SIDEBAR QUESTION:

New to the forum in general, I am not finding what I am looking for - namely a discussion on whether I would want or need a dedicated headphone amplifier if I am using headphones with vintage audio gear, such as an older Sansui amp from the late 70s. I just love electronic gadgets, but I also hate spending money without good cause - because that needlessly erodes my gadget budget on dumb stuff.

I have tried various search strings, but I only get discussions on this or that headphone amp and why it is so good with a cell phone or mp3 player and so forth - nothing debating the relative merits of full size stereo components versus small dedicated headphone amps. The best answer I have receive so far on a forum dealing with building audio gear, is "you need one if you don't like the way it sounds." Logical, but not particularly helpful.

If this is the wrong forum or place to ask, I would appreciate a polite redirection to the proper venue. Thank you. TTmaven

Short answer is it depends upon which headphone(s) you're interested in driving. If you have high impedance headphones like ZMF, HD800, HD600, HD650, Beyer T1.1, AKG K240 sextetts, etc...You will not need a dedicated headphone amp.

If on the other hand you're wanting to drive a low impedance/ high sensitivity dynamic driver headphone and/or planar headphones you most likely will run into something called "impedance mismatch" which typically manifests itself with a bad case of bass bloat when driven on an old 1970s receiver. In that case you probably will want to invest in a dedicated headphone amp.

The reason for this is simple. Back in the 1970s low impedance/high sensitivity headphones, or headphones meant to be used out of a phone or DAP, did not exist. All vintage headphones were high impedance, typically up over 300-600 ohms and the receivers of the day were designed to drive the headphones of that era.

 

[Lvivske]

Not entirely true, headphones back in the 70s were like 8 to 16ohm and amps were designed to match those. I think it was a carry over from what they used on mixing boards at the time. I know my Pioneer was designed with 8ohm in mind, its all in the service manual. The thing with 'vintage' is there was such a rapid evolution in just that 10 year span from 70s to 80s, way more than the stagnation & standardization we're used to now for the past 20 years.

SIDEBAR QUESTION:

New to the forum in general, I am not finding what I am looking for - namely a discussion on whether I would want or need a dedicated headphone amplifier if I am using headphones with vintage audio gear, such as an older Sansui amp from the late 70s. I just love electronic gadgets, but I also hate spending money without good cause - because that needlessly erodes my gadget budget on dumb stuff.

I have tried various search strings, but I only get discussions on this or that headphone amp and why it is so good with a cell phone or mp3 player and so forth - nothing debating the relative merits of full size stereo components versus small dedicated headphone amps. The best answer I have receive so far on a forum dealing with building audio gear, is "you need one if you don't like the way it sounds." Logical, but not particularly helpful.

If this is the wrong forum or place to ask, I would appreciate a polite redirection to the proper venue. Thank you. TTmaven

Short answer would be no...ish. Vintage gear will work with headphones but you're going to have a ton of headroom to go deaf with most of the time, so attenuation with your source will be important if you want to move the volume higher than 3/10. And because of that power, you may want to be prepared for a higher noise floor than most would find acceptable (depending on the amp). That said, properly restored vintage amps can absolutely blow away dedicated headphone amps in some match ups so there isn't an absolute rule; but at the same time, modern stuff works out the box, is designed for a specific job, and has more ease of use.

There's also different designs to keep in mind. Earlier stuff was direct line headphone jack to power amp, while others attenuated by throwing resistors in the circuit. A few years later companies started using op amps and separating the headphone section as its own thing, and further on many consider some headphone sections to be an afterthought that doesn't hold up to a dedicated headphone amp at all.

Have you bought the Sansui yet?

 

[Monsterzero]

There are of course going to be exceptions to most rules, heck Sennheiser once made a headphone that was 2000 ohms (!) Generally speaking however, older headphones were high impedance and vintage receivers generally do best with those.

Not too many modern headphones out there today below 20 ohms, other than a few planars, or above 600 ohms.

 

[TTmaven]

Have you bought the Sansui yet?

Yep - I purchased it new in 1974 - it may be older than you are! Thank you for the reply! TTmaven

 

[Lvivske]

The variance is why it's good to check first, pulled up a '76 Sony and it's designed for both

Headphones in the 70s were primarily low impedance as far as I've seen, with most catalogs listing specs for 4-16ohm up to 32ohm sometimes

some catalog screenshots

Since he's looking at Sansui, their headphones at the time were 25r and recommended matching 4-32, so it's likely they designed their amps with this in mind.

 

[Lvivske]

Yep - I purchased it new in 1974 - it may be older than you are! Thank you for the reply! TTmaven

Oh so you've tried it out, but were wondering more if there are benefits to a modern dedicated amp?

If it hasnt been serviced in 50 years then there's a good chance it's not performing to its full potential

 

[TTmaven]

Oh so you've tried it out, but were wondering more if there are benefits to a modern dedicated amp?

If it hasnt been serviced in 50 years then there's a good chance it's not performing to its full potential

I agree on both points. You guess correctly - I AM wondering if it would be worth my while to use a dedicated headphone amp ... although I was expecting it would be more of a want than a need as the amp sounds good and has no issues. The reason I ask is, an audio engineer told me a dedicated headphone amp would knock my socks off sounding so much better, and yet I have no complaints and rather doubt the difference would be that dramatic.

I also agree headphones were low impedance, as indicated by your catalog research... my first cans, Pioneer SE20A were 8 ohms. We have come a long way since those days !
I am a ham radio operator and build a lot of my own gear, and I know my 1975 vintage amp is in good condition and working to spec. ... at least so far. It is, of course, getting older every day, so I suspect it will reach a point where it will need caps and other updates. (Knocking on wood as he typed.)

Thanks for the additional input. TTmaven

 

[Monsterzero]

I AM wondering if it would be worth my while to use a dedicated headphone amp ... although I was expecting it would be more of a want than a need as the amp sounds good and has no issues. The reason I ask is, an audio engineer told me a dedicated headphone amp would knock my socks off sounding so much better, and yet I have no complaints and rather doubt the difference would be that dramatic.

What headphones are you wanting to drive via your Sansui?

I have eight different vintage receivers and none play nice with low impedance headphones. Yes, it will get extremely loud, and yes the bass will be huge, as will the noise floor.

I also have a modern OTL tube amp as well as a few modern SS dedicated HP amps, ranging in price from $179.00 up to $3700.00 . They each have their strengths and weaknesses, headphones that they have great synergy with and others that they do not. It's really impossible to make a broad brush statement that a 'headphone amp' will blow the doors off of your Sansui.
If you have a pair of headphones that sound good out of your Sansui, and you're happy with the sound then why mess with success?

 

[Monsterzero]

Headphones in the 70s were primarily low impedance as far as I've seen

I think that most of the classic vintage headphones that are still getting headtime today were high impedance. My first headphone was a low impedance, 4 ohms Koss that cost about 20 bucks, but It was a low end consumer model that sounded marginally better than two coconut shells connected by a string.

Most of your vintage AKGs, Beyerdynamics, Sennheisers, etc...real, high end headphones were in the 250-2000 ohm range

 

[jonathan c]

I think that most of the classic vintage headphones that are still getting headtime today were high impedance. My first headphone was a low impedance, 4 ohms Koss that cost about 20 bucks, but It was a low end consumer model that sounded marginally better than two coconut shells connected by a string.

Most of your vintage AKGs, Beyerdynamics, Sennheisers, etc...real, high end headphones were in the 250-2000 ohm range

Note the last sentence below:

almost any stereo unit