[knopfy]

@ TheMonkey: i'm not talking Marketing BS so far - it takes a lot of time to select/ match all parts, ensure the quality level and then manufacture the T1...beyer surely would love to have much more available in shorter time.

 

[nickchen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif And that is precisely why it makes no sense for Beyer to artificially limit supply - people will get frustrated, and buy something else. If people cannot get the T1, many if not most will move on to something else. It's hard to defend why someone would just wait endlessly for a T1 when there are many other choices, and as such, hard to justify the idea that Beyer is "holding back", IMO.

Maybe they have similar problems as Sennheiser had in the first 2 months of the HD800 release. They told us that there was a frustating phase where they produced frightening numbers of scrap, they needed weeks to find the reason.

That anger & frustation was the reason they had invited the german forum, as the respective "Sennheiser sucks" thread had climbed on #1 of the german google search in the meantime.

 

[BushGuy]

I notice a great many posts re Sennheiser in this last grouping of posts. How did this become a Sennheiser thread? Frankly, such discussion is of zero interest to me, and is not at all germaine to the thread.
This thread is accessed by those of us who want to find tidbits that may further our knowledge re the T1........the rest of this is intellectually insulting B.S..

 

[Xcalibur255]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif No need to be sorry; I've worked for and advised some pretty sophisticated businesses, but that's neither here nor there. You have your opinion and that's fine; I think your opinion is rather simplistic and applies largely in the context of electronic widgets. We are not dealing with commodity pricing here. Beyer has a profit margin that it wants to keep and it knows exactly what it's doing. Of course Beyer is in business to make money, and a rational profit maximizer understands that restricting supply in the face of high demand can mean big bucks.

The street price quickly settled at about 995 and has stayed there despite the limited supply. So Beyer can artificially restrict supply and sell fewer units at 995 or they can sell as many as they can produce at 995. Which makes more sense? Restricting supply is not going to make their price go up, it only makes for longer backorders in this case. I don't really follow the logic behind your belief that Beyer is holding out.

 

[neptius]

Naturally, it is great thing when discussion about T1 is here very active and different proposals or opinions are presented. I work on projects in the area of information accessibility for blinds, so I have some contacts to producers.

During communication with Beyer, about the delays for customers, I obtained serious reasons. There ware NEVER problems found by Sennhesier with HD 800. I do not know what they made during first production line of HD 800, but something there was not ok.

The production of T1 is made in headquarter in Germany by the most skillful, long time experienced specialists for headphones crafting, most part of production is made by hands. Each component there is precisely chosen and measured. The complete product is then carefully tested, measured, to deliver the declared quality and specification. There are precise musical tests too. The producer guarantees the perfect quality of each part of T1. The time for production of one model is much longer as for premium models or consume class one (they are crafted by automatized machine). There is no problem as found by other producers, when they after few mounts “speeded” production by excluding some project production parts, measuring or testing (especially musical tests), so by Beyer you always obtain serious and verified product, without any risk.

When T1 was released and first “delay” was presented, the company rapidly increased the number of workers for T1 production. Today are working more then two times more workers as in October. This problem is ONLY local, because Beyer for production of open and closed models is going to do decisions to solve this unwanted problem. So the delays for open or closed will be past or very short. It is not easy to allocate more workers, because this requires employ new for other activities (educate actual one with experience for production of premium or other models and take them for T1, and new employers for “older” projects). During crisis these decisions are much more complicated. It does risk for future. When economic situation will be more stable, then it is able to do simply several decisions. Producers have always long-term loans, so banks are very carefully see the activities realized by producer. Beyer is relatively small company, with at about 600 employers in headquarter, so cash flow is in different order as for Sennheiser company or Denon.

Simply said, Beyer does best work for customers which is now possible and the problems with delay are principally solved for future, for open or closed modes, they will NOT repeat the same again.

I know, nobody like waiting, but I think Beyer does very correct very precise and very responsible work with best visitation of needs and support for customers. Without aggressive arrogance, without laying, without cheating, with very familiar communication. I want to thank for all who own T1 are has waited some couple of weeks and naturally I want to thank for all communication made with Beyer during last years.

PS: I am NOT employer or distributor, business man or marketing for Beyerdynamic, I am only ORDER owner of some Beyer products, in same order as models by other producers, but I have only information which is useful for other people.

 

[Beagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think they need to ramp up production of T1 before there is another top headphone released in the market, which will be the focus of everyone.

They should have ramped up production before the release date.

 

[pyramid6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neptius /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...

This maybe true, but I still don't have my headphone.

I think they just don't want to exceed demand 6 months from now. If you ramp up to make 100 a month, and there are only going to be 200 people who want your phone, what do you do after 2 months? Demand will slow down, and they will be left with excess capacity.

Still it seems like it's worth the wait.

 

[neptius]

Beagle – it is the thing which we can simply say but difficult for realization. Real emprise projects and sources administration are very complex things. I studied information systems and I know how things go on.

 

[wower]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neptius /img/forum/go_quote.gif I studied information systems and I know how things go on.

Ug, not this again. It's like he just got on the internet. Patrick82 welcomes you to my head-fi ignore list nep.

 

[neptius]

I post my first thread with poll about, I think, interesting question about the topic which most of you has interested during more then one year. All your sugestions or ideas are welcome, and naturally, voting your opinion is a good idea too.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f103/h...-class-473731/


wower – I can not so understand your issue. Is it for me?

pyramid6 – I think you will have your one during relatively short time. I think, there are produced at about 500 per mount.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xcalibur255 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The street price quickly settled at about 995 and has stayed there despite the limited supply. So Beyer can artificially restrict supply and sell fewer units at 995 or they can sell as many as they can produce at 995. Which makes more sense? Restricting supply is not going to make their price go up, it only makes for longer backorders in this case. I don't really follow the logic behind your belief that Beyer is holding out.

What makes you think $995 is the settled street price? Looks to me like that's the mandatory minimum price dictated by Beyer. In other words, I don't think there is a "street price." I have no personal knowledge of that but it seems much more likely, especially given Senn's similar approach with the HD800. And the issue of restricting output is pretty basic economics, but we've beaten this horse to death; some people believe Beyer, some people don't.

All that aside, I want a pair.

 

[TimJo]

I'm on the list of back-orders, and happy to wait...

In many ways, I really don't see what the issue is anyway. Most folks buying the T1's are buying them to add to their current collection of headphones. It's funny how the 'I want it now' aspect of retail blurs the reality that you are buying a handmade product from a respected manufacturer. I'm happy to wait for something that is being built and tested by senior members of the Beyer production staff. The Stax phones I'm listening to right now had similar production constraints and were on back-order for months. I'm glad I waited...

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyramid6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This maybe true, but I still don't have my headphone. I think they just don't want to exceed demand 6 months from now. If you ramp up to make 100 a month, and there are only going to be 200 people who want your phone, what do you do after 2 months? Demand will slow down, and they will be left with excess capacity. Still it seems like it's worth the wait.

I think this is very much the case.

Many hi-end companies don't solicit reviews for this reason. If you get a bad review, well that's bad. If you get a good review, the magazine hits the stands and lots of people gotta have it. If you keep production stable, you get theories why you can't supply demand. If you "ramp up" production, in a few months when the next phenom comes along, your sales dip and you have excess stock and excess production capabilities.

A big company like Beyer also has to be careful that the new product doesn't sap too much resources from your bread & butter products...

Kevin

 

[neptius]

I spoke with friend from Beyer again and he said me that the experience with production of T1 are very carefully analyzed and they are going to solve the problem for future, so open or closed version of T1 so customers will wait much less time. As he said, the production of T1 is longer time activity and each part is composed very carefully, they want TRUELY deliver perfectly crafted unit. As I said, several producers perfectly produce first one or two series, with all detailed considering and then they "cut" several parts during production to do it "faster" or "chipper" (maximize their profits) but customer may obtain different thing as expect. The problem is that several "anomalies" are detection able or finding able by user during very long time listening or application, or by specific measuring (the defect can find expert only), so they are hardly detected able. Beyer does never cheat customers and deliver always the best quality which is declared and they want to do it. So Beyer is careful in all parts of production and all components are measured and proven that are ok, this make production longer, but absolutely correct and VERY responsible to customers. They obtain all what they expect, excellent work and result without any debt.


I have presented the question about DT 48 model, which is very unique and specific one, and of course VERY popular. Friend said me that they have in plan produce professional version (series) of T1, which will be analytical, true reference studio headphones, or version for HeadZone, because with T1 the HeadZone goes to higher level. So the parallel line from Premium class is going to be here again. But do NOT expect when they release it, it could take one or two years, but the things are planned for longer time term, so production of T1 is NOT "the shoot to heaven and then discontinued" but very serious progress and innovation in this area.

I spoke with friend about prices. He said that all depends on exchange between euro to US dollar and the fact, that the price move down when dollar is stronger is able do after some time, because the contracts made by producer are paid by date actual exchange. But Beyer would like do prices correct and responsible for customers. I spoke about the sets with other devices or recabled T1. The fiend said me that this is open problem. For Premium models, there is no problem to choose cable from T1 (the body). I presented the proposal about the recabling by certified service center for Beyerd products with special cable for concrete amp to obtain powerful set. This aspect is now solved and under consideration. Beyer is open to do the best work for customers, familiarly and open for useful solutions.

So I think this is very different approach as I have shown by other producers. If you have any comments, things or proposals, you can send me and I will communicate with friend. He is open to share with info with you.

 

[neptius]

I think SkyLab is going to be happy when he reads previous issue that several him loved headphones are going to be upgraded to class Tesla. In same order MacedonianHero.

When you have any comments, proposals or ideas, I can pass to friend for answer, so you can obtain some info. But naturally, do NOT think that this is official company information, it is only "familiar friends-style" communication, nothing more.

Well, could be possible to present other emphasizes or reviews about T1 listening with several amps, for example Woo audio 2 or 22, Ray Samuels B-22 or B-52, Zana or Rudistor's? Thanks for all your info.