beginner advice for HD800 - do i need an amp? does the cable really matter?
Aug 5, 2010 at 9:00 AM Post #16 of 45
I'd like to take issue with what some people have said about punting on the HD800 and keeping the HD600 while buying a better amp and DAC.
 
 
My response is:
 
My Audio-GD Compass amp/dac combo (around $300 when I bought it) sounds waaaaaay better with my HD800s than my HD650s. Does it get everything out of my HD800s? Nope. Easily understood when you hear them through my StageDAC and Leben.
 
 
So to the original poster: Get the HD800s. But definitely get a good amp ( if I plug my HD800 into my computer is sounds baaaad)  or get a entry level DAC/AMP and save for more later on.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 9:24 AM Post #18 of 45
I would stay away from inexpensive tube amps. You should search the threads for inexpensive SS amps and look for used stuff too. I like the compass, the Audio-GD fun is the replacement that's a DAC/Amp combo. But people are raving about the Schiit Asgard for $250 which leaves some moolah for a entry level DAC. Anyway live with that for a bit but definitely upgrade when you can. If you can get to around a $1000 or so you will be getting noticably mroe from the phones...
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 9:33 AM Post #19 of 45
I gotta jump in on this.  Consider me a heretic and a philistine.  I own the HD800 and have my own opinions about it.  Consider my viewpoint that of a vocal minority screaming to be heard.
 
Question 1: Would a beginner really notice a difference with HD800's between my current setup (PC to desktop speak to headphones) and improved equipment?
Sure.  A better amp will bring out the best in your equipment.  With respect to the HD800, I can run it off my iPod or PC and get great sound.  What I don't get enough of is bass.  It needs a good amp to get the bass.

Question 2: What extras do people usually buy for their headphones? DAC, Amp, Cables?
 
I don't have a DAC (digital to analog converter) because there are only one or two digital devices that dock with the iPod (both of whom are overpriced), which is what I use to store and play my music.  People with CD players, however, need a good DAC since most amps don't have a built-in DAC.  I also never changed out my Sennheiser cables for after-market cables.  Some report great results from doing so, but I was so thoroughly impressed with the HD800 - even off an iPod - that I never saw the need to spend big bucks on a cable.
 
You definitely want a DECENT amp.  By decent, I'm talking about something costing at least a few hundred dollars, not a $40 cMoy or a $100 Pimeta or a $150 Mini3.  You don't need a tube amp.  What you do need is something that can provide enough power to your HD800 to let it handle highs and lows in a controlled manner.  I have an M^3 with a variable bass boost.  The M^3 is a DIY amp designed by the AMB team.  It uses three channels (the third channel prevents undue interference between the first two channels as they share a common ground wire) utilizing mosfets (hence the MMM name).  It's a very clean opamp-based solid state and a tremendous bang for the buck.  With a regulated power supply (to prevent current spikes that interfere with performance) it's a very smooth ride.  The variable bass boost actually helps me compensate for tracks that are cold and thin.  I like it because the HD800 doesn't color its performance, which means it's never too warm.  I can bring up the bass where needed.  On other headphones, including the T1, it's impossible to lower the bass when it's overbearing.
 
Because of the added STEPS PSU, my setup costs around $500, though you can find a good deal here and there.  An M^3 using just a wall wart could be gotten for $300 to $400.  I would highly recommend the bass boost as it really helps with tracks that seem unusually cold and thin.
 

Question 3: What does the DAC do? Does it replace the sound card (since the sound card outputs analog)? Does a DAC require OS (windows 7 64-bit) driver software? Is it necessary or just an improvement?
 
A DAC just converts digital audio to analog.  Most amps input analog, though a growing number of the newer and better ones will take a digital input.  If you're using a digital device - like a CD player - you'll want the best analog converter you can get.  Since I use an iPod, I have limited choices and just use the 10-pin to RCA converter ($50), which plugs directly into my M^3.

Question 4: I feel that upgraded cables for stereo equipment is a scam - nobody in a blind test can tell the difference between $1500 cables and $2/foot hardware store cable. But everywhere I look, people are very emphatic that headphone cables are very important. Do headphone cables actually make a difference?
 
Some say yes.  My wallet says no.  And yet, my HD800 experience is out of this world.

Question 5: The important question! Given a $400-$500 budget, a PC and a pair of typical desktop speakers, and the Sennheiser HD800's, what is necessary to buy (if anything) to improve the sound?
 
You need an amp.  The amp is the number-one factor as far as getting great sound out of an HD800.  There are other factors to consider: the tracks you use, the quality of your source player, the quality of your DAC (if you need one) and maybe the cable, though the cable with the HD800 worked just fine for me.
 
BOTTOM LINE
 
To the extent people are telling you not to buy an HD800 unless you can afford a bunch of other items, I think you're getting FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) rather than than facts.  You do NOT need a bunch of extras to hear an immediate difference between your HD600 and an HD800.  You're hear differences right out of the box (though my HD800 did sound better the longer I had it).  To be sure, you can improve your gear by having better tracks, a better source player, a better DAC and maybe even better cables - but what you most need is a decent amp.
 
A decent amp.
 
You don't need tubes, though many great amps use tubes.  In fact, tubes are slower, albeit warmer, than solid state.  The thing that most distinguishes the HD800 is its speed.  Because its driver is so responsive, there are really neat details you can make out, even with less exalted gear.
 
You don't need a package of unicorn tears to get great sound out of an HD800.  I'm doing it off an iPod.  My M^3 helps, especially with the bass.  Don't let the naysayers - many of whom don't even own an HD800 - discourage you from buying what may be the finest headphone you'll ever own.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 9:33 AM Post #20 of 45
Since your soundcard now has a coax digital out, I would recommend a decent DAC / Headphone amp.
 
Try a used Benchmark DAC/Headphone Amp or a used Lavry DA10 - a bit higher than your $400 range though.
 
Used Headroom DAC/Headphone Amps are pretty good as well.
 
Definitely go the 'used' route.
 
Good luck!
 
CJ
:)
 
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 9:35 AM Post #21 of 45
Take a look at the used section right here in Head-Fi.  You can't get better deals.  Probably 90% of my equipment has come from the used section here at Headfi.  I've never been disappointed.  I bought three M^3's, a Cmoy, a couple of Pimetas, a Mini3, several SR60s, SR80s, an SR60i, an SR225, a K701, an HD650, a Koss PortaPro, a couple of mid-fi cans and even a T1 right here at Headfi.  I once had a tempest in a teapot over a P51 Mustang, when a buyer thought it was a missing knob (the knob is actually recessed) and the guy I bought it from offered to pay the whole freight for a repair that wasn't needed in the first place.  With the exception of one flipper who low-balled me on my GS1000 and then sold it for top dollar, I've found nothing but deals and honorable traders here at HeadFi.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 1:57 PM Post #22 of 45
Bilavideo pretty much took the words right out of my head. You don't necessarily need to spend a bundle to get excellent performance from the HD800 (or any headphone, for that matter). The Matrix M-Stage amp performs about as well as any amp I've ever heard when paired with the HD800. It is available for under $300 shipped. Add a good USB DAC like the Audinst HUD-mx1 (under $200 shipped) and you have excellent performance for under $500 total investment.
 
I think he is absolutely right to advise that the HD800 with decent amp is better than a stellar source/amp with lesser headphones like HD600. You may not be getting 100% out of the HD800, but even at 90% it is better than the HD600 at 100%.
 
Put it this way: I prefer my Audinst -> M-Stage ->HD800 combo (~$1900 total shipped, brand new) to some of my other gear configurations like Wavelength Cosine -> Luxman P-1u -> HD600 (over $6000 when new). For me at least, headphone and speaker upgrades are much more audible than source or DAC upgrades.
 
I wasn't clear if you already have the HD800s in your hands, or if you are just planning on purchasing, but the above is my humble opinion.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 2:32 PM Post #23 of 45
A:

The V-Dac might be an option. The DacMagic is great.


B:


The Matrix M Stage, Asgard and Headroom Micro Amp are all cost effective amps that will get sound from the HD800.


Pick one from column A and one from column B and you'll have something special.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 3:54 PM Post #24 of 45


Quote:
im trying to do the research but every time i find a good candidate, i find someone who thinks it sucks :frowning2:
 
for example I read a post recommending the combined DAC/AMP Fubar IV for $250. sounded perfect until i read a review on amazon that said the DAC was great but the amp had a lot of hiss. it's like that for every amp i research - one person loves it, someone else hates it. Although appreciating audio electronics can be subjective, i had hoped that at least there were a few models that were generally agreed upon to be the top tier, and i could confine myself to choosing from 2-4 models instead of 100+. it's pretty difficult and frustrating so far.


 
[size=medium]you won't find any statement that someone on the web won't contradict - whether "true" as in supported by objective standards/tests/measurements recognized by current science/engineering or totally subjective "Golden Eared" magazine reviews or posts by those seduced by the magazines/forums florid verbiage into wanting to sound like sophisticated audiophile connoisseurs[/size]
 
[size=medium]there is a huge problem with ignorance of psychoacoustic basics and innumeracy in relation to audio component specifications and their implications for systems in reviews and posts = you need to learn and then screen/judge look for internal clues as to the credibility of the information[/size]
 
[size=medium]as an example: hiss is typically a problem with high sensitivity iems, HD800 are 30 dB less sensitive in dB SPL re V - hiss will seldom be a problem with 300 Ohm full size headphones - not enough V output from the amp for dynamic music peaks is the more likely limitation[/size]

 
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 4:16 PM Post #25 of 45
I use the Musiland 02US DAC/amp combo to run the HD650s and have powered the HD800s with them too. I think the 02US does an amazing job considering its price ($125 new on eBay). It's not too far off from performance from my reference setup. 
 
If you feel afterwards that the money was well-spent, you can start looking into more expensive standalone DACs and amps. I'll tell you now though, you'll have to pay a lot more to improve on the 02US's performance. You don't have a whole lot to lose, and some sellers offer a 7 day money back guarantee as well.
 
BTW, forget about the cable right now. That's the last thing that should be upgraded, and it won't reveal its true benefits without a proper DAC/amp.
Also, don't listen to people who don't have sufficient experience with what they're recommending. It will mislead you into buying undeserving FOTMs. I've owned everything I'm talking about (check profile).
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 4:26 PM Post #26 of 45
tons of good info in this thread, thanks very much to everyone taking the time to help me!
 
feel free to add more info, i plan to start buying stuff next week. but i wanted to say thanks :)
 
another problem i'm having is that all these parts are so esoteric, it's non-trivial just to track down where/how to buy them. when i want a computer part i just type it into any search engine and have 20 stores to choose from, but for things like "Audinst HUD-mx1" it takes quite a bit more work to find out. i guess that goes with the territory.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 4:43 PM Post #27 of 45
First, if you've owned and loved the HD-600 for nine years, I think you'll love the HD-800. When I first saw your thread, I was going to tell you to try the HD-600 first and see if you liked it before dropping $1,400. So I think that you'd love them.

An amp absolutely helps, and I think the HD-800 is best on tubes. Unfortunately, there aren't any high quality inexpensive tube amps. Parts for a good tube power supply often run $400-$500, not including rhe rest of the amp or labor. Solid state is low power and runs well off inexpensive supplies. If I were you, I'd look at the PreSonus Central Station. It's a combined DAC and amp. I had one for a couple of years and only got rid of it when I moved away from the computer to vinyl and SACD. It sounds very good and should work well with the HD-800. If you want to move to a different amp later, you could still use its DAC.

Don't bother with cables, they're all snakeoil. No one has ever measured a difference and no one has ever heard a difference with their eyes closed. When the believers are pressed for evidence, they resort to denying the laws of physics, arguing against the scientific method and argue that precision measuring equipment is defective. Moreover, cables are immensely profitable, so the manufacturers send out the shills to try to drum up sales. Someone who claims to hear a difference could very well be on the payroll. Take the claims you read with a full shaker of salt. Maybe you believe me and maybe you don't, but one thing is certain - I'm not going to make a dime off you.
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 4:59 PM Post #28 of 45
I don't buy into the notion that the HD800 would go to waste if you don't have a proper DAC and amp.  I'd be willing to bet that they still sound better out of an iPod than HD600s do.  So I'd go for it.  Let them blow your mind until you have enough for a proper DAC and amp.  Then discover your HD800s all over again.  Headphones that good can grow with you. 
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 6:22 PM Post #29 of 45


Quote:
I don't buy into the notion that the HD800 would go to waste if you don't have a proper DAC and amp.  I'd be willing to bet that they still sound better out of an iPod than HD600s do.  So I'd go for it.  Let them blow your mind until you have enough for a proper DAC and amp.  Then discover your HD800s all over again.  Headphones that good can grow with you. 


My HD800s distort and sound awful out of my cowon D2 or my ipod. You defintely need a good amp to listen to the HD800s. But an ok amp for the HD800 doesn't cost that much...
 
Aug 5, 2010 at 6:24 PM Post #30 of 45


Quote:
I don't buy into the notion that the HD800 would go to waste if you don't have a proper DAC and amp.  I'd be willing to bet that they still sound better out of an iPod than HD600s do.  So I'd go for it.  Let them blow your mind until you have enough for a proper DAC and amp.  Then discover your HD800s all over again.  Headphones that good can grow with you. 


Yea they'll still sound better through an iPod, but not $1000 better, not even close.
 

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