[MICHAELSD]

Right, let’s please stop the nitpicking. Backers are getting 100mm planar magnetic drivers with an integrated Cipher amp/DAC in addition to Bluetooth with AAC & LDAC and head-tracking for ~ $249. This headphone a year ago would have cost over $799. That Audeze was able to get the price down to the Indiegogo pricing represents innovation on their part to lower the cost of their latest planar magnetic technologies.

 

[MICHAELSD]

In addition we’re getting a quality boom mic and a hard carrying case. This would have easily been a $1,000-$2,000 package a year or two ago.

 

[LaCuffia]

Actually it would have been $3K a year or two ago because it comes in two colors.

 

[subtec]

There's a lot to cover. There nothing particularly misleading. Just do your research and don't just make up the product you wish from partial information.

It's all well and good to say "do your research," but the problem is that some key limitations have never been explained by Audeze themselves. For example, to get to the bottom of whether it was even possible for the microphone to work in Bluetooth mode I had to get into the nitty gritty technical details of the Bluetooth spec. The answer is, the second you try to use the mic in Bluetooth mode, the headphone will revert to low bit rate, mono audio, which makes it essentially worthless for voice chat while gaming. That's just a limitation of Bluetooth. It's crappy, but w/e.

The point is, it's one thing to tell people to read the product page, it's entirely another thing if in order to get to the answer a customer has to go out of their way to research extensively research the technology. "Can you use the headset in Bluetooth mode?" should be an obvious question for the FAQ, when it's known that the answer is a rather disappointing (for those interested in the feature), "Yes, but the headphone audio will no longer play in stereo during voice communication."

 

[Buddhahacker]

It is what it is. If you purchased the product and are not happy with it then take it up with Audeze or sell the headphone. I am not finding this conversation constructive or appropriate to this forum. Take it off line with Audeze.

 

[subtec]

I am not finding this conversation constructive or appropriate to this forum.

Really? So far as I've seen, I'm the only one that's brought up this particular issue. I would bet money that there are people who are happy to be made aware of this limitation. If informing potential buyers about the limitations of a product isn't constructive or appropriate, I wonder what you think is?

 

[gregr507]

Really? So far as I've seen, I'm the only one that's brought up this particular issue. I would bet money that there are people who are happy to be made aware of this limitation. If informing potential buyers about the limitations of a product isn't constructive or appropriate, I wonder what you think is?

I think that you in particular have been pretty civil with your questions/criticisms, but some others have not. Anyway, I see your issue (mic use over bluetooth) as more of a bluetooth issue than a mobius issue. As for the point in your previous post about it being nice to be able to get up and get a drink, do chores, etc. without pausing your podcast, I agree. However, if you are doing something like that where latency isn't a big issue, why not use bluetooth in that situation? Yeah it would be cool to have it be as functional for gaming via bluetooth as it is via USB, but it sounds like bluetooth technology is the main limiting factor here.

 

[subtec]

Anyway, I see your issue (mic use over bluetooth) as more of a bluetooth issue than a mobius issue.

It is a Bluetooth limitation, though there are workarounds. The only standard way in Bluetooth to do two-way transmission is to use either the HSP or HFP profiles (headset and hands-free profile, respectively), both of which are mono audio only. However, Creative Labs have incorporated a "voice-back channel" into some of their Bluetooth products (this transmitter, for example) that I believe allows for both stereo audio and the microphone to work at the same time. The downside is that it needs to be supported at both ends - i.e., both the transmitter and receiver - or it doesn't work, and currently Creative is the only company making such products as far as I know. So there are ways to make it work over Bluetooth, but it would involve developing a transmitter to go along with the headset. I can't really blame Audeze for not wanting to take that on in addition to developing the Mobius.

As for the point in your previous post about it being nice to be able to get up and get a drink, do chores, etc. without pausing your podcast, I agree. However, if you are doing something like that where latency isn't a big issue, why not use bluetooth in that situation?

Well, I currently do use a pair of Bluetooth headphones (HD6XX powered by an Earstudio ES100). Mine supports AptX though, which is lower latency than the codecs the Mobius uses, and which is also supported much more widely by PC-compatible transmitters. I find AptX (and not even the Low Latency variant) to be sufficiently delay-free for my uses.

I use my headphones for everything - gaming, watching movies, youtube videos, music, etc., so latency ranges from very important to not at all, depending on what I'm doing, and it's nice to have a headphone that can handle all of it well. It'd be nice if it was also a high-end headset, for double duty as both a gaming headset and Skyping headset (the latter being a situation where it'd be nice not to be tethered to the PC), but it seems we can't have everything (yet). I was initially hopeful the Mobius might be the one, but no such luck.

 

[HipHopScribe]

Just to give some more clarity to anyone worried about bluetooth, on Android at least video apps generally compensate for latency so it shouldn't be any issue when watching movies or youtube or the like, even if your phone doesn't have LDAC. I don't know how Windows handles it as I've never used bluetooth on my laptop, but this is a long-running issue, so chances are Windows also compensates for video/audio sync with bluetooth. Gaming is obviously an issue though, as you can't really introduce visual delay without messing up gameplay. Clearly Audeze always had the intention for gaming to use USB-C, where it's not an issue and where you get the full functions of the headphones

 

[kenyee]

Really? So far as I've seen, I'm the only one that's brought up this particular issue. I would bet money that there are people who are happy to be made aware of this limitation. If informing potential buyers about the limitations of a product isn't constructive or appropriate, I wonder what you think is?

FWIW, I didn't know bluetooth would go to mono when using the mic either or that it was a limitation in the bluetooth spec. I agree it should be in the original FAQ for the Indiegogo page (not that I plan to use it in bluetooth for gaming but I can see how it would be important for some people)...

 

[mashuto]

To change the subject away from bluetooth for a moment... I have a question about the head tracking that I cannot remember if it was answered anywhere before or if I just missed it.

So, since this is all internal tracking in the headset, does the headset only track rotational movement? Or does it also track side to side, up and down and back and forward too? The so called 6 degrees of freedom. Part of the reason I ask is because obviously the rotational stuff is important, but if its not also tracking the other movement too, couldnt that very easily take you out of the illusion of the 3d sound stage since even though the sound might be fixed relative to the way you are facing initially, if you then dont move in a rotational direction, the whole sound stage would still move with you, right? Maybe its not as big of a deal, and the illusion is still preserved well enough just with rotational tracking, but I just figured I would ask and see if anyone knew.

 

[Saoshyant]

Ok, I have to ask. Are the flaws people are pointing out with bluetooth are standard general bluetooth issues instead of specifically relating to the Mobius, or are they Mobius specific problems that don't occur with other bluetooth headphones with mic capabilities?

If they're problems contained within general bluetooth limitations, are you all honestly expecting Audeze to lay out every possible issue that could possibly come up using bluetooth? That must be a small book of any plausible issue that could occur when trying to use bluetooth.

 

[subtec]

Ok, I have to ask. Are the flaws people are pointing out with bluetooth are standard general bluetooth issues instead of specifically relating to the Mobius, or are they Mobius specific problems that don't occur with other bluetooth headphones with mic capabilities?

If they're problems contained within general bluetooth limitations, are you all honestly expecting Audeze to lay out every possible issue that could possibly come up using bluetooth? That must be a small book of any plausible issue that could occur when trying to use bluetooth.

The issues with the mic are a Bluetooth limitation, since the only way to do two-way communication with Bluetooth by default is intended for voice calls only. That means latency takes priority over everything else, and bit rate and stereo sound get sacrificed. As I described above with the Creative Labs products, there are ways to add proprietary extensions to Bluetooth to allow for simultaneous voice communication and stereo sound. But like I said, that requires the transmitter to support it as well, and I'm not going to blame Audeze for not developing a second companion product to go along with the headset.

While it's true that this problem is common to any Bluetooth headset using the standard BT profiles, Audeze is specifically marketing the Mobius as a PC gaming headset. If it were marketed as anything else I would give them a pass, but for this particular demographic voice chat is a primary use case. To not disclose the significant downside of using voice chat in Bluetooth mode (loss of stereo audio), which directly impacts the target market, is IMO at least a bit negligent.

 

[Saoshyant]

Negligent?

As they tell you exactly what forms of BT are supported, you're fully capable of going out and doing the research to see if this suits your needs. Expecting others to do your research for you leads to an ill-informed decision being made. Having read the entire Indiegogo page, as well as having been on this thread from quite early, I just never got the impression the BT aspect of this headphone was intended for gaming. The only real mention I noticed of BT and gaming was in reference to mobile gaming.

 

[subtec]

Negligent?

As they tell you exactly what forms of BT are supported, you're fully capable of going out and doing the research to see if this suits your needs. Expecting others to do your research for you leads to an ill-informed decision being made. Having read the entire Indiegogo page, as well as having been on this thread from quite early, I just never got the impression the BT aspect of this headphone was intended for gaming. The only real mention I noticed of BT and gaming was in reference to mobile gaming.

Well, consider it from the point of view of an average, non-technical consumer:

-Consumer sees "Awesome new gaming headset from respected audiophile brand Audeze!" "Great!" they think, "It even has Bluetooth, just what I always wanted! Now I can game on my PC without those pesky wires getting in the way!"
-Buy it, unpack, pair it to their computer's built-in Bluetooth
-Load up Overwatch, jump in voice chat with gaming buddies
-Sound is terrible - tinny and harsh, no stereo
-"What?? Why does it sound so bad? Piece of crap."
-Headset gets sent back for a refund.

This isn't an unlikely scenario. Most people aren't familiar with the technical nuances of Bluetooth profiles; they just see it as "now, without wires!" The fact that the headset behaves differently in wired vs. wireless mode should be disclosed. If it's not, expect that many more disappointed and upset customers (and bad reviews on Amazon).

Arguing against informing the consumer really isn't a winning argument.