Audeze LCD2 vs Sennheiser HD800??
Jan 19, 2011 at 9:40 AM Post #436 of 1,379
I find it a bit pointless in people arguing about what sounds 'better' when everyone's standard is so totally different, like how one person would say, this pair of headphones are; bass heavy/dark/neutral sounding, etc. In my opinion, even if someone thinks that the Beats Solo sounds better than the HD800, that could be totally valid.
However, there are things that cannot be right, like a 12 bit recording can never be better than a 16 bit recording, analogue/cassette tapes, vinyl records cannot be better than CDs. One can prefer the sound of analogue tapes or vinyls, but technically, they cannot be better.
 
Coming back to the difference between the LCD-2 and the HD800, here are my thoughts.
 
In my opinion, how some people would claim the LCD-2s to be dark sounding is total untrue, if the LCD-2s are any brighter than they are, they would sound sibilant. The LCD-2s sound good with all types of music because they are truly neutral sounding, one can hear everything that's supposed to be there, and if there are things that one cannot hear with the LCD-2s, then they are probably not meant to be heard.
When I first got my HD800s, I was totally disappointed by the sound signature, it is so bright that they literally hurt my ears, mostly with dance or pop music, but in the last 7 months, I've learnt that they are truly amazing for listening to acoustic music with, especially classical music. I think the reason being that with most pop, and especially dance music, they are usually so heavily compressed and limited, there's hardly any dynamic range in the mix, the whole song is always at its peak from start to finish. And if one were to listen to that with average to above average listening level, the sibilance would become unbearable. However, with classical music, which is much less compressed with a much bigger dynamic range, they are easily 15-20 dB softer than pop or dance music on average, hence, the bright sound signature of the HD800 is never a problem because the peak in classical music is a lot less frequent.
Because of how our perception to loudness is related to both the SPL and duration of sound, some people, most notably MrGreen, who listens to music at an extremely low level, would find the LCD-2s dark sounding for music with big dynamic range, or people who listen to music with lower listening level in general.
The HD800s are not neutral sounding, in fact quite colored in my opinion, but that is also what make them good with classical music. The bright sound signature brings out more details even at low listening level (like the 'loudness' button), and the larger than life soundstage gives acoustic music a livelier and spacious environment. A lot of my own mixes of acoustic music seem to be more reverberated and livelier sounding. Now that may be more preferably sounding to some, whether it's better sounding or not depends on the individuals. I think Sennheiser designed the HD800s that way intentionally, for audiophiles to enjoy audiophile type of music with, whereas the LCD-2s are designed to sound true to what one would hear in a studio environment, with more or less any type of music. 
wink.gif

 
Jan 19, 2011 at 10:06 AM Post #437 of 1,379
I really have to try these LDC-2's - as an ex-HD800 owner, they do sound an interesting proposition. Quite a few people in the know have told me the LCD-2 is overall, the finest can they have ever heard....
 
Jan 19, 2011 at 10:22 AM Post #438 of 1,379


Quote:
vinyl records cannot be better than CDs. One can prefer the sound of analogue tapes or vinyls, but technically, they cannot be better.


 
Wait... what?
 
The opposite is, in fact, true - vinyl is by definition a higher-resolution medium than CDs. You may not like the crackles and pops that you get, but definitionally, more information is coming across through the vinyl, no?
 
Jan 19, 2011 at 11:31 AM Post #439 of 1,379


Quote:
Quote:
vinyl records cannot be better than CDs. One can prefer the sound of analogue tapes or vinyls, but technically, they cannot be better.


 
Wait... what?
 
The opposite is, in fact, true - vinyl is by definition a higher-resolution medium than CDs. You may not like the crackles and pops that you get, but definitionally, more information is coming across through the vinyl, no?


In most ways, the technical specification war is won by CD, except that as you point out there is not the need for a very steep brickwall filter/high-end rolloff with Vinyl the way there has to be with CD, which definitely creates some sonic problems. 
 
OTOH, I like the sound of vinyl better.  And in many cases recently, the mastering job done for vinyl is better that that done for CD, which is one factor in the often better sound.
 
Jan 19, 2011 at 12:30 PM Post #440 of 1,379
Yes, but it depends if your priority is accuracy or listening pleasure. 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
Quite a few people in the know have told me the LCD-2 is overall, the finest can they have ever heard....


Vinyl records in theory can produce frequencies as high as 30kHz and as low as 45Hz, but since even the best analogue master tape machines can only produce a frequency response of 30-22kHz, it's no better than a CD, and if one were to use digital as the master, then one might as well listen to 24bit digital recordings instead; a 16bit CD can have a signal to noise ratio of 96dB but it's 75dB for vinyls at best. The beginning of a vinyl record gives twice the amount of resolution than the end, so SQ degrades gradually depends on how near the stylus is to the centre of the record, and the longer the record duration, the lesser the amplitude of the lower frequencies, that's why it's a norm to put slower and quieter songs as the last tracks of an LP. But the biggest problem of vinyl records I think is the analogue copying process; the sound quality degrades with each generation of pressing, due to the loss of quality in the progression from the original lacquer master to metal master to stamper to vinyls, so a vinyl record in theory can never sound as good as the original. Even with direct cut vinyls, the sound quality degrades every time a record is played, the top frequency can be degraded down to 16kHz even after 2 dozen plays.
Having said that, I can totally understand why some people prefer the sound of analogue records to that of CDs, a bit like tube amps, they add distortions and colorations, but that doesn't mean that they are less pleasurable to listen to. 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
Wait... what?
 
The opposite is, in fact, true - vinyl is by definition a higher-resolution medium than CDs. You may not like the crackles and pops that you get, but definitionally, more information is coming across through the vinyl, no?



 
Jan 20, 2011 at 11:57 AM Post #442 of 1,379
The HD800 are brighter in the 6 kHz range.
 
Jan 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM Post #443 of 1,379


Quote:
In my opinion, how some people would claim the LCD-2s to be dark sounding is total untrue, if the LCD-2s are any brighter than they are, they would sound sibilant. The LCD-2s sound good with all types of music because they are truly neutral sounding, one can hear everything that's supposed to be there, and if there are things that one cannot hear with the LCD-2s, then they are probably not meant to be heard.
When I first got my HD800s, I was totally disappointed by the sound signature, it is so bright that they literally hurt my ears, mostly with dance or pop music, but in the last 7 months, I've learnt that they are truly amazing for listening to acoustic music with, especially classical music. I think the reason being that with most pop, and especially dance music, they are usually so heavily compressed and limited, there's hardly any dynamic range in the mix, the whole song is always at its peak from start to finish. And if one were to listen to that with average to above average listening level, the sibilance would become unbearable. However, with classical music, which is much less compressed with a much bigger dynamic range, they are easily 15-20 dB softer than pop or dance music on average, hence, the bright sound signature of the HD800 is never a problem because the peak in classical music is a lot less frequent.
Because of how our perception to loudness is related to both the SPL and duration of sound, some people, most notably MrGreen, who listens to music at an extremely low level, would find the LCD-2s dark sounding for music with big dynamic range, or people who listen to music with lower listening level in general.
The HD800s are not neutral sounding, in fact quite colored in my opinion, but that is also what make them good with classical music. The bright sound signature brings out more details even at low listening level (like the 'loudness' button), and the larger than life soundstage gives acoustic music a livelier and spacious environment. A lot of my own mixes of acoustic music seem to be more reverberated and livelier sounding. Now that may be more preferably sounding to some, whether it's better sounding or not depends on the individuals. I think Sennheiser designed the HD800s that way intentionally, for audiophiles to enjoy audiophile type of music with, whereas the LCD-2s are designed to sound true to what one would hear in a studio environment, with more or less any type of music. 
wink.gif


holy sweet mother of God yes.
 
Jan 20, 2011 at 12:40 PM Post #444 of 1,379


Quote:
 I think Sennheiser designed the HD800s that way intentionally, for audiophiles to enjoy audiophile type of music with, whereas the LCD-2s are designed to sound true to what one would hear in a studio environment, with more or less any type of music. 
wink.gif


Yeah, glad i listen to audiophile type music not studio recordings just live jam rock mainly.  Then i sounds like i am really there in the crowd with the HD800s sounding so much more realistic than the LCD-2 to me with that artificial sub bass added.  ----  stir pot
tongue.gif
  But it's how i really hear it after listening to both.   Just the other side of the coin i guess.
 
Jan 20, 2011 at 1:30 PM Post #445 of 1,379
In a way, what you said is true, the HD800s do give an impression of actually being there for live acoustic music.
For those of you who have been to many live concerts, you would have noticed how different the music would sound greatly depends on where you are sitting. If the LCD-2s give you the impression that you were sitting in the 10th row at a jazz concert, the HD800s (with emphasized highs and slightly attenuated lows) would make you feel like you were sitting right in the front row, which is actually quite impressive. If that's what you like, that's great, but for purists and those who prefer accuracy, the HD800s are very colored. The LCD-2s are accurate, they just present music with nothing added, warts and all; they definitely don't have artificially added sub-bass, what you can hear is what is supposed to be heard; sub-bass is a form of natural sound, and a lot of acoustic instrument can produce it too. 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Yeah, glad i listen to audiophile type music not studio recordings just live jam rock mainly.  Then i sounds like i am really there in the crowd with the HD800s sounding so much more realistic than the LCD-2 to me with that artificial sub bass added.  ----  stir pot
tongue.gif
  But it's how i really hear it after listening to both.   Just the other side of the coin i guess.

 
Jan 20, 2011 at 1:54 PM Post #447 of 1,379
I don't listen to much acoustic music but I do like the energy of being close in a concert. What I meant about subbass being artificial is it doesn't sound correctly integrated to me as in my DX1000 and Ed8's. Maybe it is just the different sound between dynamic vs. planter bass or integration. I feel that is part of the issue that many have written about the time it takes to acclimate to the LCD-2 sound signature.
 
Jan 20, 2011 at 2:20 PM Post #448 of 1,379
I wish I had the chance to listen to headphones with planter drivers...
 

 
Jan 20, 2011 at 2:33 PM Post #449 of 1,379
Maybe you are one of those people who always managed to get right to the front in concerts. The high frequencies get attenuated the further away you are from the speakers of PA system, if you've ever sat right at the back of a concert you'd know you won't hear much apart from the bass, and when you are right at the front, sometimes the high frequencies can get very overwhelming. So in that sense, you are absolutely right, the HD800s do give you more of that feel of being close in a concert and it's probably the reason why the HD800s are so well liked by Head-fiers despite of the 6kHz spike. 
wink.gif

 
Quote:
I don't listen to much acoustic music but I do like the energy of being close in a concert. What I meant about subbass being artificial is it doesn't sound correctly integrated to me as in my DX1000 and Ed8's. Maybe it is just the different sound between dynamic vs. planter bass or integration. I feel that is part of the issue that many have written about the time it takes to acclimate to the LCD-2 sound signature.

 
 

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