Nov 4, 2021 at 12:53 PM Post #2,476 of 7,074
Tempest 3D audio can be finicky when things don't properly support it however, so definitely only use it with PS5 games, not so much older PS4 games. :wink:

To bring this back on topic,

I'm sure the LCD-5 with applied virtual surround DSP would be life changing for me. LCDs tend to have a large, immediate, tall soundstaging, which in addition to horizontally expansive DSPs would make for some truly immersive gaming.
I am buying the Redscape software and will try it in WZ with the LCD5. I will report back, thanks!
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 1:00 PM Post #2,477 of 7,074
I am buying the Redscape software and will try it in WZ with the LCD5. I will report back, thanks!
I've used Redscape exclusively for WZ. Great combination.

Redscape allows a degree of customizability too. I personally max out the surround slider, but it's effective even at very low surround settings too.

Also, just make sure windows is picking up Redscape as a 7.1 device.

redscape.jpg


Sorry to sidetrack the thread guys.

If anyone else wants to know about this stuff, please discuss this with me on my guide HERE in the gaming section..
 
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Nov 4, 2021 at 1:08 PM Post #2,478 of 7,074
But at the same time, when a manufacturer releases a $4000+ HP with "huge" deviations from the target, with big bumps and dips, for me that means the manufacturer didn't do its homework well enough.

Not at all. It means that the h/p manufacturer believes that there is a viable market for its new product at its planned price point, despite any wiggles, big or small, that may show on some FR graphs.

"Listening trumps measurements" should be the take-away lesson.

Nobody has yet produced a headphone that measures flat like an amplifier, nor one that tracks the Harmon curve perfectly. Since they must be trying, and its a competitive & innovative industry, we have to assume that the reason nobody has done so is because doing so isn't technically possible at this time on the physical/hardware side, given the constraints that design, size, and materials impose on potential solutions.
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 1:10 PM Post #2,479 of 7,074
Not at all. It means that the h/p manufacturer believes that there is a viable market for its new product at its planned price point, despite any wiggles, big or small, that may show on some FR graphs.

"Listening trumps measurements" should be the take-away lesson.

Nobody has yet produced a headphone that measures flat like an amplifier, nor one that tracks the Harmon curve perfectly. Since they must be trying, and its a competitive & innovative industry, we have to assume that the reason nobody has done so is because doing so isn't technically possible at this time on the physical/hardware side, given the constraints that design, size, and materials impose on potential solutions.
There are headphones sold with applied DSPs to fit any curve they target. I'm sure someone can just have a headphone tracking any curve. Not sure that's the way to go, as just blindly following someone's curve regardless of whom or what, doesn't make for a perfect sounding headphone. There's way too many factors than just, hey let's follow some curve.
 
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Nov 4, 2021 at 1:49 PM Post #2,480 of 7,074
There are headphones sold with applied DSPs to fit any curve they target. I'm sure someone can just have a perfectly Harman tracking curve on a headphone.
Wouldn't tracking Harman to be "neutral" be useless? Well made speakers are tuned to be neutral In a good listening room using microphones.

But headphones have to deal with the shape and size of people's ears so one frequency curve will be heard differently be evryone who wears them. Wouldn't it be impossible to create a headphone that is actually neutral the headphones cannot account for the different shape/size ears? If there's some technology that can account for this please tell me. I know apple has adaptive eq but airpods aren't exactly audiophile products
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 1:57 PM Post #2,481 of 7,074
Wouldn't tracking Harman to be "neutral" be useless? Well made speakers are tuned to be neutral In a good listening room using microphones.

But headphones have to deal with the shape and size of people's ears so one frequency curve will be heard differently be evryone who wears them. Wouldn't it be impossible to create a headphone that is actually neutral the headphones cannot account for the different shape/size ears? If there's some technology that can account for this please tell me. I know apple has adaptive eq but airpods aren't exactly audiophile products
I'm merely stating that due to application of DSPs in some powered headphones, targets can be applied regardless of what it is. But there's more to a headphone's sound than some curve.

It's not some magic fix all. As has been discussed at length on this thread, there's more to sound than just some response graph.
 
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Nov 4, 2021 at 2:33 PM Post #2,483 of 7,074
Foam strips + velcro 3-minute mod for excessive clamp force.
* Requires advanced arts-and-crafts skills
Nice, the orange velcro really pops :smile:.
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 3:22 PM Post #2,484 of 7,074
At the moment, I'm keen on being able to properly simulate a room full of speakers in a 7.1 array. It really helps with video games and movies in particular, as the directionality is something that no headphone can convey no matter how large a soundstage or brilliant the imaging is. There is no replacement for actual audio information placed properly in a 360 degree horizontal circle around your listening position. So if you want to hear something being truly behind you, you need virtual surround on ytour headphones. I'd take a $15-$20 Koss KSC75 with virtual surround over an HD800 in 2ch/stereo for my gaming purposes, every single time. That's how important virtual surround is in object placement location. That KSC75 will simulate a room with speakers, while the HD800 is just gonna sound like a headphone with a large headphone soundstage. No headphone will sound as large as a room with speakers, which that little Koss KSC75 is simulating.

I have a few that I think really showcase the strength of virtual surround based DSPs.

1. Redscape Audio - This one is my current fave. You can also get it with a headtracking dongle, which if you've heard the Audeze Mobius with Waves NX headtracking, it's similar to that, but for any headphone.

2. Creative's SXFI - This is one of Credative's newer surround implementations, and I actually think is the mosty convincing, but it's also quite processed sounding, so it may turn off a lot of people unless (as we discussed) you allow your ears to adapt to the change. SXFI is available on many devices that Creative makes, though not sure on software based solutions.

3. Waves NX - Particularly on the Audeze Mobius, it's really quite immersive and gives you an easy all in one solution with headtracking.

4. Darin Fong's Out Of Your Head - This one is quite pricey, but you get a bunch of different real life venues, studios, home setups recorded and simulated on your headphones. It's quite brilliant, as you get to hear what they sound like on your headphones. Again, it's pricey.

5. Creative SBX - Creative's other surround implementation, I feel this is the best for people first getting used to virtual surround, as it is the least processed. It still does a fine job emulating surround properly, without it sounding too processed. This is the first choice I'd give any newcomer. It's found on some Creative hardware like the Creative X7, and G6. The great thing is that you can send that surround emulation digitally through optical out to another, better DAC if you wanted. Or just use these as a DAC to a better amplifier.

6. Sennheiser GSX - This is one of the best, but it's tied to some Sennheiser hardware that I feel limit its potential.

I should add that Xbox now utilizes Dolby Atmos at the hardware level, and Sony Playstation 5 uses Tempest 3D audio, both which when properly utilized, are great alternatives to the above. Tempest 3D audio can be finicky when things don't properly support it however, so definitely only use it with PS5 games, not so much older PS4 games.

I should note that I don't use these things for music, or 2ch content. I only use it with properly encoded 5/7 channel sources. Meaning, mostly video games, and movies.
Thanks for the recommendations. Have you ever tried the Windows Store Dolby Atmos app? How does it compare?
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 3:32 PM Post #2,485 of 7,074
I have tried five "soundstage" enhancers on my PC.

1. Waves NX
2. Redscape.
3. Goodhertz
3. Red Line monitor.
4. Tone boosters

Redscape has the largest soundstage and presents the most out of the head simulation- no question;- but to my ears it sounds totally artificial.
NX also sounds artificial to my ears- but in a different way. Red Line monitor and Tone boosters are a bit more realistic.

However, Goodhertz is by far the most realistic crossfeed/soundstage DSP I have heard. Just my two cents.
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 3:35 PM Post #2,486 of 7,074
Thanks for the recommendations. Have you ever tried the Windows Store Dolby Atmos app? How does it compare?
I paid for the license to use it on PC. It works ok, but I feel it lags behind the others due to lack of customizability (i.e. room size sliders like on Redscape). The soundstage is a bit too restrictive to quickly assess front/rear depth. I don't know how well Dolby Atmos behaves on the Xbox however. It may be better. I don't have an Xbox Series X (I'd like one).

I still like the old Dolby Headphone DSP which had 3 room settings (Room 1 and 2 were usable, Room 3 was a bit too much reverb). Dolby Atmos doesn't even manage that, so I'm a little disappointed in it.

I'm less worried about realistic tonality, and more interested in how well it can emulate surround. Some DSPs don't do well enough in making rear sound cues like they're actually behind you. In a game like Warzone, that's death.
 
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Nov 4, 2021 at 4:23 PM Post #2,487 of 7,074
I suggest Hart Audio. They do custom work at a very reasonable rate, and best of all, their craftsmanship is great and they are super to work with. They made me adapters to go from 4-pin XLR to 4.4, 6.3, and 3.5.

Oh, didn't know they do 4-pin XLR to other connector types, thought it was just their own multi-plug type to others.
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 4:23 PM Post #2,488 of 7,074
Not at all. It means that the h/p manufacturer believes that there is a viable market for its new product at its planned price point, despite any wiggles, big or small, that may show on some FR graphs.

"Listening trumps measurements" should be the take-away lesson.

Nobody has yet produced a headphone that measures flat like an amplifier, nor one that tracks the Harmon curve perfectly. Since they must be trying, and its a competitive & innovative industry, we have to assume that the reason nobody has done so is because doing so isn't technically possible at this time on the physical/hardware side, given the constraints that design, size, and materials impose on potential solutions.
Nothing beats the other. Both are there to support one another. Nothing is one or zero. They overlap and that overlapping area has different sweet spots for different people and different conditions. You may ignore one or the other but that is just your "choice".

The lean treble on LCD-5 is an easy fix with a PEQ, and it is also visible in the measurements. It doesn't have any other issues and has a very clean response. If I was to get an open desktop headphone, LCD-5 would probably be at the top of my list (TC wouldn't even make it to the list). For the rest seems to be an excellent headphone in every way; comfort, build, other technical capabilities. Though I wish it was easier to drive, at least with something like FiiO M17 or my battery powered ADI-2, as I like to move around the house with headphones on.
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 4:27 PM Post #2,489 of 7,074
I have tried five "soundstage" enhancers on my PC.

1. Waves NX
2. Redscape.
3. Goodhertz
3. Red Line monitor.
4. Tone boosters

Redscape has the largest soundstage and presents the most out of the head simulation- no question;- but to my ears it sounds totally artificial.
NX also sounds artificial to my ears- but in a different way. Red Line monitor and Tone boosters are a bit more realistic.

However, Goodhertz is by far the most realistic crossfeed/soundstage DSP I have heard. Just my two cents.
If you are just after soundstage not surround, you can check the pro audio VSTs, in mastering mode. For example, Expanse3D is very good.
 
Nov 4, 2021 at 4:32 PM Post #2,490 of 7,074
Nothing beats the other. Both are there to support one another. Nothing is one or zero. They overlap and that overlapping area has different sweet spots for different people and different conditions. You may ignore one or the other but that is just your "choice".

The lean treble on LCD-5 is an easy fix with a PEQ, and it is also visible in the measurements. It doesn't have any other issues and has a very clean response. If I was to get an open desktop headphone, LCD-5 would probably be at the top of my list (TC wouldn't even make it to the list). For the rest seems to be an excellent headphone in every way; comfort, build, other technical capabilities. Though I wish it was easier to drive, at least with something like FiiO M17 or my battery powered ADI-2, as I like to move around the house with headphones on.
Erhan - I don't find the treble lean at all on the LCD5 to my ears and the Graph doesn't show lean treble either to my eyes so it is again about the sound at the beginning and the end of the day still for me. Also the Stealth is harder to drive than the LCD5 by several percentage points in my experience (which is probably one of the reasons I have not had any offers on my set that are for sale in the classifieds yet).
 
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