[n3rdling]

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I guess it is possible that you had a gap when listening, though unlikely.  Perhaps your ears are missing, which I suspect after reading that post.

Umm maybe your eyes are missing? because I did say "the ones I have heard" and mentioned the 303 and 404. NOT the omega.
 
This is very interesting stuff though and gives me hope to one day hear the omega. But the graph of the 404 does not make sense to me eyes and ears.
 
I do like the stax sound overall anyways - just not for the price of entry.
 
 
The 404 graph sounds nothing like what I heard. Maybe the lower down one. There was very noticeable bass roll off and I had specifically brought bass heavy music (among other music) to test them with. There were entire rhythms in the low end that were not there, or barely so that should have been via the 404. To be fair I am a stax nub and there might have been a better way to wear them... I then to wear my headphones loosely and the way that the ultrasone guys and Jan Meier suggest to wear them down and back, to expose the whole ear. I tried doing this with the stax and it is very possible there was not a proper seal thus killing the bass. I used them mid level tube amp.
 
I have no idea if it was the amp, the edition of the headphones, they fit on my head, but I assure you what I was hearing was not that sexy looking middle graph. Not at all and they were easily trounced by my LCD-2 rig at home except for soundstage.
 
 
Too bad I won't have the chance to bring my HD 800 down to the shop and AB, but they HD 800 are noticeably bassier to by ears.
 
So, I might be a noob, an may or may not have worn them improperly - but I know exactly what I am talking about because, oh yeah, I experienced it with my personal reference material.
 
again, the 404 sounded like the SA5K to me, which suggests are very different graph. Sounded like the HD 800 although more neutral in the highs and less neutral in the lows.
 
Oh and P.S. these graphs are well overdue ... however they do not seem to agree with the geocities ones IIRC.

The amp should be fine to drive the Lambdas, I think the problem is that you are confusing bass authority with bass SPL.  The Lambdas don't have much impact whereas the LCD2s have tons.  I believe this can be analyzed via square wave graphs.  SPL of different frequencies is obviously analyzed via the frequency response graph.  Most people who have their first encounter with the bass on stats (just saying stats for now, this doesn't exactly apply to a couple of them) describe the sound similarly to your own impressions - that the bass is missing.  Spend a longer amount of time with them if you can to hear what people with stat experience mean when they say stats have the cleanest, most textured bass.  You can hear every slight change in tonality - there is no "one note bass" that plagues so many dynamics out there.  Those types of dynamics are like logitech subwoofers, the LCD2s are like Maggies, and stats are like Quads.   The O2 (and Omega to a lesser extent) is an exception to this as it is the only headphone able to pull off the bass texture of the Lambdas and also maintain a great deal of bass authority, which is why I say it's got the best bass.  The LCD2 has very nice bass as well, so you're not missing out on a ton in the grand scheme of things.
 
 

 
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Even that is a nice graph (02) and its much more believable then the one you had for the 01.
 
notice there is bass roll off. TBH though I am no sure which kind of graph this is or if it is compensated etc. Just know it looks much more realistic and the 404 to my ears would be something like this with a bit more roll off in the bass.
 

 
Notice how similar, but more neutral the HD 800 graph is....
 
Seems I am not so crazy after all smarty pants.

As for the graphs, I'll take the word of Stax engineers over some guy with a geocities account.  It has been said many times in these forums, but there is a feeling that he didn't know how to properly fit the O2 to the dummy head.  There is a lot of swiveling and adjusting going on with the pads/drivers, and it doesn't help that the O2 is picky about fit.  To make things worse, it would be easy for somebody to mistakenly put the pads on backwards because of the shape of the inside of the earpads, thus giving no seal and ruining the bass extension (back to the gap measurement).
 
Here are measurements provided by a member of this forum with both the O2 and LCD2 (on the same measurement system instead of cross referencing which isn't exactly truthful...not you, just HFers in general):
 
O2mk2

 
LCD2

 
 
BTW, that's the O2mk2 which is more rolled off in the deep bass than the O2mk1.  These measurements pretty closely follow my initial impressions of the two headphones compared some months ago before he had the headphones, which I'm proud of. 

 

[MrGreen]

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Umm maybe your eyes are missing? because I did say "the ones I have heard" and mentioned the 303 and 404. NOT the omega.
 

He posted a 404 graph which is largely similar to the other headphones stax has (except the sigma) because of their design targets (which are similar to etymotic, except ety aim for diffuse field EQ instead of free field)
 
 
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This is very interesting stuff though and gives me hope to one day hear the omega. But the graph of the 404 does not make sense to me eyes and ears.

 
It does to mine.
 
 
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The 404 graph sounds nothing like what I heard. Maybe the lower down one. There was very noticeable bass roll off and I had specifically brought bass heavy music (among other music) to test them with.

 
Not to my ears. And the LCD-2 to my ears is also neutral down low, although the way it presents it is a little different.
 
 
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There were entire rhythms in the low end that were not there, or barely so that should have been via the 404

 
There were phrases missed by the LCD-2 that both the omega and stax lambda signature picked up on. Shocking to me, in fact, because I never heard them before.
 
 
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I have no idea if it was the amp, the edition of the headphones, they fit on my head, but I assure you what I was hearing was not that sexy looking middle graph

 
You should have. The graphs provided by stax show that the stax headphones sound more or less identical to a flat loudspeaker in free field.
 
 
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Not at all and they were easily trounced by my LCD-2 rig at home except for soundstage.

 
The only are where the LCD-2 competed to my ears was bass. And then it was apples and oranges, and frankly I would take the stax (and I did)
 
 
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Too bad I won't have the chance to bring my HD 800 down to the shop and AB, but they HD 800 are noticeably bassier to by ears.

 
That's because the HD800 have a slight bass boost.
 
 
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So, I might be a noob, an may or may not have worn them improperly - but I know exactly what I am talking about because, oh yeah, I experienced it with my personal reference material.

 
 
Technically audiographic memory isn't a very reliable source, but okay.
 
 
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Oh and P.S. these graphs are well overdue ... however they do not seem to agree with the geocities ones IIRC.

 
I posted them several pages back while talking about headphone design (particularly free field vs diffuse field EQ).
 
 
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I do like the stax sound overall anyways - just not for the price of entry.

 
That's funny. I just bought some stax (earspeakers AND an amp) from n3rdling for about the same price it would have cost me to get an LCD-2 (and arguably one of the more pricey used lambdas at that). I could have sold my dynamic amps to make it cost even less, but I decided to give it to my friend after no one picked it up within about a week.
 
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Even that is a nice graph (02) and its much more believable then the one you had for the 01.
 
notice there is bass roll off. TBH though I am no sure which kind of graph this is or if it is compensated etc. Just know it looks much more realistic and the 404 to my ears would be something like this with a bit more roll off in the bass.

Ryumatsuba's graph is compensated for HRTF by the looks because of the treble. Regardless, he is one man doing this as, what appears to be a hobby. Stax by contrast are a company - companies do not release false data (regardless of what you think). Why? Because people do measure headphones and any differences noted are obviously bad for the company. Keep in mind that this is within reason as, there's no standard for measuring headphones (no angle or position that is considered ideal). Many people use heads which produce a "good enough" seal, but not exact. You can notice a roll-off in basically all of ryumatsubas graphs, which suggests a limitation in his gear.
 
Furthermore, as far as I know, what that graph shows (bass hump) is generally accepted as one of the key differences between the Omega and the O2. Furthermore, frequency response changes with volume. He doesn't mention what volume he is using, merely a reference from full scale (I'm assuming 16 bit?).
 
A flat frequency response isn't that impressive anyway? They do it all the time for speakers. They do it all the time for audiometric equipment. Etymotic and stax both do it from two different ideologies of listening with speakers.
 
Personally I find "compensated" graphs an unncessary complication to graphs. Generally they're used by people who are unwilling to show that headphones need a boosted treble response (including the LCD-2). There's no standard for room, HRTF, Moller, or anything. It's anyone's guess what someone is using and how welll they are doing it.
 
Anyway.

 

[rhythmdevils]

 

[Anaxilus]

Mr. Green I think you listen w/ your eyes.  Your continued praise of Etymotic placing them on the same detail level as the LCD2 is absurd.  I've owned the ER4S...twice.  Easily bested by the CK10, DBA02, D7000, ESP950 and my own modded T50RP which is currently my resolution king.  I honestly think there was/is something wrong w/ your listening of the LCD2 based on a few of your comments.

 

[MrGreen]

Double post.

 

[MrGreen]

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Bested by the CK10

I agree, the CK10 is a great set. I won't bother commenting on how furious you are about someone elses opinion, or how I think the LCD-2 is not a very detailed headphone for it's pricepoint.

 

[Anaxilus]

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Bested by the CK10

I agree, the CK10 is a great set. I won't bother commenting on how furious you are about someone elses opinion, or how I think the LCD-2 is not a very detailed headphone for it's pricepoint.

Noone is upset at your opinion.  They are upset at your obstinate attitude and misrepresentations.  Don't give yourself so much credit playing devil's advocate.  You appear far from being an 'honest broker' here.  I can understand your arguments about electrostats versus the LCD2 but when you go so far to equate the ER4 w/ the LCD2 it's clear you have a personal agenda to push.       

 

[MrGreen]

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it's clear you have a personal agenda to push.       

Lol ok.

 

[TigzStudio]

Mr. Green were you still using the DacMagic as your DAC when listening to your LCD-2s?

 

[MrGreen]

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Mr. Green were you still using the DacMagic as your DAC when listening to your LCD-2s?

Yep, but given the fact that I was using it with every other combo I am making reference to, it's an irrelevant factor? Furthermore my dislike for the LCD-2 largely has to do with it's tonal response and it's decay, rather than anything else. Changing DAC is going to improve every headphone, it's not going to suddenly ruin or make-awesome a headphone I like/don't like. Don't make me whip out dacmagic measurements, brah.
 
On the subject of measurements, I was actually looking at some for the Ayre QB-9 and oddly it measures similarly for square wave output compared to the dacmagic. Anyway, source is my next point of upgrade. No idea where I'll go at the moment. Either extremely high end vintage or moderate high end modern.

 

[jamato8]

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Mr. Green were you still using the DacMagic as your DAC when listening to your LCD-2s?

Yep, but given the fact that I was using it with every other combo I am making reference to, it's an irrelevant factor? Furthermore my dislike for the LCD-2 largely has to do with it's tonal response and it's decay, rather than anything else. Changing DAC is going to improve every headphone, it's not going to suddenly ruin or make-awesome a headphone I like/don't like. Don't make me whip out dacmagic measurements, brah.
 
On the subject of measurements, I was actually looking at some for the Ayre QB-9 and oddly it measures similarly for square wave output compared to the dacmagic. Anyway, source is my next point of upgrade. No idea where I'll go at the moment. Either extremely high end vintage or moderate high end modern.

Get a modded Sony ES777 or get one cheap and have Vacuum State Electronics Inc. do some work on it. The sled can always be repaired in the future and not much has been made like it. Outstanding when modded. Or one of the other current mid high end as you mention, which there are plenty. 
 
Interesting to read all the comments about other phones but boring after a while. Maybe start a Stax thread or rejuvenate one. 

 

[mobbaddict]

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Mr. Green I think you listen w/ your eyes.  Your continued praise of Etymotic placing them on the same detail level as the LCD2 is absurd.  I've owned the ER4S...twice.  Easily bested by the CK10, DBA02, D7000, ESP950 and my own modded T50RP which is currently my resolution king.  I honestly think there was/is something wrong w/ your listening of the LCD2 based on a few of your comments.

He's only mentionning the Etys because they're using diffused field equalization. I don't think he's talking about technical level at all.
 
Regarding the Lambdas, I agree with sokolov about the bass roll off, but maybe I'm getting a bad seal as well. I wouldn't go as far as saying the deep bass is missing, but it's clearly lacking compared to the O2.

 

[K3cT]

I don't think there is a bass roll-off with the Lambda, with the 404LE at the least, but there is a sort of "fuzzy" quality about it. I don't know how to put it nicely in words... 

 

[Frank I]

It seem that this has become another stax thread. Can we keep the discussion on the LCD2 as that what this thread is about.

 

[SP Wild]

A more logical discussion than LCD2 vs HD650...I think the comparison with STAX is far more logical.  The HD650s should never be brought up in this thread ever again...other than to say that there is no comparison.