Are Super High End DAPs Really Worthy?

[AlexRv]

pretty sure the internal iPhone DAC doesn't support DSD files...

I'm talking about OOTB, iPhone playing DSD file (hardware). No using a 3rd party DAC to do the job or 3rd party software...

edit: the Onkyo software seems to be Android only (https://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/applications/hf_player_android.html), good luck getting that installed on an iPhone lol! Just had a read of this page:

https://www.whathifi.com/au/advice/how-to-play-hi-res-music-your-iphone-0

there's no way I'm paying near $100 for the proprietary Apple cables to connect lightning to micro USB so I can use a 3rd party DAC. No thank you. I have an iPhone 6 and it will be the last product that I ever buy from Apple - I refuse to support their monopolistic and anti-competitive behaviour any further.

No problem with iPhone)

 

[dpastern]

No problem with iPhone)

yeah just realised the page I was looking at was for android and found the iOS page. Onkyo does their page weird - most pages will have a single page for an app, with links on said page for both android and iOS....I didn't look at the URL immediately and thus didn't notice it was android only page...hence no link to iOS.

 

[WilcoRoger]

A&K is doing very well to test the highest price tag of a DAP can be set. So, they can squeeze the most money from your pocket, and they deserve that.
In order to make the new model to sell, the factory has to tune it differently or improve the resolution.

Ehm, no. To sell a new model, they need sleek design and lots of marketing (snakeoil) From the beginning AK cleverly built up their brand image as a top end, top dollar brand - that‘s more marketing than hard product. So good is their brand work, that it survived unscathed some blunders as well.

 

[vodanhkhack]

yeah just realised the page I was looking at was for android and found the iOS page. Onkyo does their page weird - most pages will have a single page for an app, with links on said page for both android and iOS....I didn't look at the URL immediately and thus didn't notice it was android only page...hence no link to iOS.

No problem with Android , too

 

[travellersolo]

Show me an iPhone that can play DSD files...there's your answer.

Many more reasonably priced devices can also ply DSD, like those Fiio's and Hidisz at least.

 

[travellersolo]

It should be a thread theme about finding happiness. As really “worthiness” is a matter of opinion and completely subjective.

Folks are going to gravitate towards the sound they like, regardless of brand. In fact the thread would be a disservice if it considered Sony to have an edge.

Don't worry, if anyone thinks Sony does have some special edges in regards to SQ, then it's relevant here. Best if they could back it up with proofs.

I'm still wondering, if supposed many of us accepted that most players in the range of US$1000 sound very very good already, what then, costing in excess of US$2000, make those super players sounding nearer to heaven? Is it in the silicon? Special conductors? Or anything else?

 

[gerelmx1986]

Show me an iPhone that can play DSD files...there's your answer.

And in native mode, no conversion to PCM

 

[dpastern]

I think a lot of the super expensive DAPs (above the 1k price range) are simply playing on the gullible who 'have to have the best". It's much like expensive cables - psycho- suggestive acoustics that has no real basis other than in psychology and manipulation of the mind into thinking it's getting something better cos it's more expensive. Some may take offence at this, but it's my interpretation of the entire pricing ecology. I admit my hearing isn't the best (loss of hearing above 5.5k), so perhaps those with golden hearing can hear what I can't and I'm genuinely missing out on differences. I suspect not, but it is possible.

 

[dazzerfong]

Don't worry, if anyone thinks Sony does have some special edges in regards to SQ, then it's relevant here. Best if they could back it up with proofs.

I'm still wondering, if supposed many of us accepted that most players in the range of US$1000 sound very very good already, what then, costing in excess of US$2000, make those super players sounding nearer to heaven? Is it in the silicon? Special conductors? Or anything else?

The logo.

On a less cynical route, DAPs are by nature now niche devices, which means the volume advantage is diminished. Whether or not that means it costs $2000+ is up to you though.....

I think a lot of the super expensive DAPs (above the 1k price range) are simply playing on the gullible who 'have to have the best". It's much like expensive cables - psycho- suggestive acoustics that has no real basis other than in psychology and manipulation of the mind into thinking it's getting something better cos it's more expensive. Some may take offence at this, but it's my interpretation of the entire pricing ecology. I admit my hearing isn't the best (loss of hearing above 5.5k), so perhaps those with golden hearing can hear what I can't and I'm genuinely missing out on differences. I suspect not, but it is possible.

Well, often people claim that 'bass is tighter' when it comes to 'better' DAPs, and you certainly don't need hearing above 5.5 kHz to appreciate that if it were true.

That being said, A&K slabs really are very pretty. Shame it's horrible to hold in the hand though.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Don't worry, if anyone thinks Sony does have some special edges in regards to SQ, then it's relevant here. Best if they could back it up with proofs.

I'm still wondering, if supposed many of us accepted that most players in the range of US$1000 sound very very good already, what then, costing in excess of US$2000, make those super players sounding nearer to heaven? Is it in the silicon? Special conductors? Or anything else?

DAPs are kind of like the history of cars.

A modern nice car is reliable and functions well. Being nice would be the equivalent to what I feel you get from a $450 to $1200 DAP. Mind you, these are just my ideas from my limited shop listening and ownership experience.

So in ways that midpriced nice DAP may actually beat out high-end stuff from 2013? So there is value today in that price bracket. Same as middle of the road new cars, they to me function better than old cars. And those same middle cars function better in some ways than old high-end cars.

So there is a value place in the middle. IMO

That value is due to the increase in DAP technology since 2011. People don’t realize it but digital audio has made giant improvements since 2010 and now it’s coming to the DAP market. Many probably don’t remember what it was like in 2010. DACs didn’t play certain files formats or bit-rates. Early DAPs were that way too depending on which brand........they didn’t play all the bit-rates or file formats. Also DAPs would suffer from horrible operating systems. But because audiophiles are forgiving and will let themselves get taken advantage of...........they simply put up with it. Some did; go try and find threads from 2013 and read about people going crazy over buggy firmware. There are even Head-Fi thread titles like “Are all DAPs a joke?”

TOTL:
It’s actually rare for any TOTL thing to be a good value. Top of the line cars are known for having a heavy devaluation curve. But as far as DAPs go the extra $2000 dollars you spend only gets you a little more sound quality. High end audio has always been that way.

But in many ways this is different from the world of IEMs. Look at the value IEM market at Head-Fi, there are always the 5 value IEMs of the month. Everyone talks about how these $200 IEMs sound like $2000 IEMs. This never changes as people here are always looking for the giant killers. Sadly though they actually don’t exist. There is no $200 IEM that performs like a $2000 IEM. You would think one would come along some day, but somehow they never do. And those FOTM people simply continue to search, and spend.....pushing the never ending hype train along. Those buyers somehow believe the threads every month then buy then don’t find what they are looking for and keep buying. If they saved $200 a month in 10 months they could buy a $2000 TOTL IEM.

So I’m the guy who read about DAPs for years and years. And even today I use a regular IPod Touch if I go out. And I can say that I feel that there are still small improvements you get from a DAP over a phone. It’s best to look at DAPs like mini desktop units. That’s really what they are; they are the intermediary between a desktop system and a phone. The confusing thing is some IEMs make the difference more noticeable and some IEMs don’t.

So if the middle range is really the value, it is even more as the DAP has finally come of age. For $450 to $1200 you get Bluetooth receiving and Bluetooth sending. You get a device that’s super powerful and can play all the formats and bit-rates. Some do streaming and most are external DACs for a computer comparable to what desktops were a few years ago, but now for your money you get a miniature amplifier and DAC. In my 13 years as a member and 15 years following Head-Fi, I can say these are true values.

The Summit:
People who want TOTL are in the realm to not care about realistic value. They want what they want and are willing to pay up the nose for 10% more sound quality. They (because of the 10% improvement percentage they value) will argue that it’s a 100% difference. The small extra they value and study becomes everything. It’s not quantifiable for them. To them the sound quality is priceless.

 

[gordec]

High-end DAPs are only worth it, if you want to drive inefficient, full size cans like Diana and get as close to desktop performance as possible. You need as much power as possible crammed into a small package.

High-end DAPs are not worth it if all you are doing is to listen to IEMs. I haven't changed IEM in 5 years after I bought Westone ES60 CIEM. It went though Fiio X7, Cowon P1, Onkyo Dxp1, AK380, LG V20, Ibasso DX220, and now LG G8. To be honest, it sounds the best right now with LG G8 and UAPP.

ES60 being so sensitive had hiss with some of the high-end DAPs due to too much power.

So if all you want is to drive an IEM just get a LG phone. The V40 can be had for $200-300 new all the time. The speed and interface will destroy most DAPs.

 

[gerelmx1986]

Moat budget DAPS doensample DSD to PCM, or have only 64fs .. if you're lucky perhaps 128fs support.. I don't give this a weight personally as I have mostly SACD ripped DSD

 

[travellersolo]

DAPs are kind of like the history of cars.

A modern nice car is reliable and functions well. Being nice would be the equivalent to what I feel you get from a $450 to $1200 DAP. Mind you, these are just my ideas from my limited shop listening and ownership experience.

So in ways that midpriced nice DAP may actually beat out high-end stuff from 2013? So there is value today in that price bracket. Same as middle of the road new cars, they to me function better than old cars. And those same middle cars function better in some ways than old high-end cars.

So there is a value place in the middle. IMO

That value is due to the increase in DAP technology since 2011. People don’t realize it but digital audio has made giant improvements since 2010 and now it’s coming to the DAP market. Many probably don’t remember what it was like in 2010. DACs didn’t play certain files formats or bit-rates. Early DAPs were that way too depending on which brand........they didn’t play all the bit-rates or file formats. Also DAPs would suffer from horrible operating systems. But because audiophiles are forgiving and will let themselves get taken advantage of...........they simply put up with it. Some did; go try and find threads from 2013 and read about people going crazy over buggy firmware. There are even Head-Fi thread titles like “Are all DAPs a joke?”

TOTL:
It’s actually rare for any TOTL thing to be a good value. Top of the line cars are known for having a heavy devaluation curve. But as far as DAPs go the extra $2000 dollars you spend only gets you a little more sound quality. High end audio has always been that way.

But in many ways this is different from the world of IEMs. Look at the value IEM market at Head-Fi, there are always the 5 value IEMs of the month. Everyone talks about how these $200 IEMs sound like $2000 IEMs. This never changes as people here are always looking for the giant killers. Sadly though they actually don’t exist. There is no $200 IEM that performs like a $2000 IEM. You would think one would come along some day, but somehow they never do. And those FOTM people simply continue to search, and spend.....pushing the never ending hype train along. Those buyers somehow believe the threads every month then buy then don’t find what they are looking for and keep buying. If they saved $200 a month in 10 months they could buy a $2000 TOTL IEM.

So I’m the guy who read about DAPs for years and years. And even today I use a regular IPod Touch if I go out. And I can say that I feel that there are still small improvements you get from a DAP over a phone. It’s best to look at DAPs like mini desktop units. That’s really what they are; they are the intermediary between a desktop system and a phone. The confusing thing is some IEMs make the difference more noticeable and some IEMs don’t.

So if the middle range is really the value, it is even more as the DAP has finally come of age. For $450 to $1200 you get Bluetooth receiving and Bluetooth sending. You get a device that’s super powerful and can play all the formats and bit-rates. Some do streaming and most are external DACs for a computer comparable to what desktops were a few years ago, but now for your money you get a miniature amplifier and DAC. In my 13 years as a member and 15 years following Head-Fi, I can say these are true values.

The Summit:
People who want TOTL are in the realm to not care about realistic value. They want what they want and are willing to pay up the nose for 10% more sound quality. They (because of the 10% improvement percentage they value) will argue that it’s a 100% difference. The small extra they value and study becomes everything. It’s not quantifiable for them. To them the sound quality is priceless.

Probably like Camry vs Jaguar.

 

[John Massaria]

Instant coffee , Starbuck's or Exotic Coffee ... none of them actually produce the coffee.
They sell it at different price, but it is still simple coffee.
I tasted the most expensive coffee in the World , Kopi Luwak.
While it tasted good (and i'm not a coffee guy ... ) and it don't matter , Kopi Luwak is expensive because it is rare.

AK4497 , AK4499, AK4495 devices ... are just simple branded coffee , but sold like it is Kopi Luwak.
Served with a gold cup (audiophile cable) because it will taste much better.
And if you use a silver spoon (audiophile SD Card), you will enjoy it much.
... Ah, and don't forget to let it cool down for a minute or two (burn-in), aromas will be transfigured.

not at all - the chips are part of the ingredients - but engineering is the key all together- look at great designers like Nelson Pass or Mark Levinson or Dan D'agostino- countless engineers who can make just about anything sound good and proper. You could take the same DAC engineered to spec tolerance and some manufactures manage to make the chip have spikes in freq response and under-perform- and the result is one chip in badly designed DAC can sound terrible while same chip in proper designed DAC sounds better. Engineering is the key plus the components. (listening to Georgia Lee by Phebe Bridges FLAC 15bit/44.1khz as I type.)

 

[Redcarmoose]

Probably like Camry vs Jaguar.

There should be a thread on Head-Fi about audio quality abstinence. That’s right, a 180 degree about-face in the opposite direction this whole place stands for. Why?

Well you know...too much of a good thing. Too much chocolate, too much indulgence of anything (even good) can get old. No contrast really. Imagine simply hearing the greatest playback whenever you wanted all the time? Basically even if it’s dreamy sounding it can get old. Basically you take it all for granted.

So using a system that’s not the best makes you realize how good your best stuff is. Driving the Toyota around for a couple days can really remind you how great the seats in the Jag are! But in reverse jumping back into the economy car has it’s joys too, as they do stuff different and almost better in small ways.

It’s like.............that small extra additional sound quality add the premium DAPs do can actually be better appreciated with abstinence. It does sound silly though? I mean, why would someone buy something then use something laying around that’s secondary? For contrast.

So much of being an audiophile has to do with contrast. We actually only buy stuff at times because it’s different; not better but different.