I wish I can afford even one of those Bently class DAPs and perform my own AB testing, but that is not feasible at least in a foreseeable future. If this is still a relevant question, please chime in......
The laws of diminishing returns apply here too. And you'd better have good transducers if you want to realize the gain in quality.
Case in point. Dx160 is a phenomenal dap for $400. Going to ibasso dx220 is a hair more focused/effortless and deeper detail retrieval. But the increase is very slight for more than twice the cost.
I'm curious to see how these super high end devices measure as well .
When reviews on AudioScienceReview show that those single purpose devices are outperfomed by a 70 $ dongle (E1DA) , something is wrong ...
.....yet you don't often hear about people hooking up their tia trios and elysiums to it - and there exists a market for flagship DAPs. And they sell surprisingly well. While a sub-100$ dongle may outperform it in objective measurements of THD/IMD/SNR etc, (at a certain load) they aren't as subjectively revered by hardcore enthusiasts. Objectivists would like you to believe that their expectation bias is the motivator here while subjectivists would cling to the 'can't measure everything in audio' mantra.
I suspect it doesn't really matter. For those who believe 'the best' (a subjective moving target) can be achieved for very little money, I'm a bit jealous of them and wish I too was satisfied with measurements alone. But once you've heard the holography of an SP1000 or the crunchy upper midrange shimmer and emotive bass of the DX220 with amp8, it's hard to revert to a sterile but otherwise excellent sounding (and fantastic measuring) LGv30.
iBasso DX 220 would not be considered in the company of flagship mega money DAPS. For that you need a price of $3000.00 or more like A & K and Sony etc. The iBasso is priced to be obtained by us working folk, but a little bit dear at around $1000.00.
+1
To me, no they are not worth the kilobucks requested.
Look at the ratio cost/performance of small desktop solutions (such as schiit magni modi or topping/smsl offers) and you realize expensive daps are, to my eyes at least, a rip-off.
Is there a placebo effect? As in if a listener knows he is hearing US$3000 thing, it must have some magic in it. Would really love to see a grand shoot out double-blind contest: blind-folded testers being presented with a few DAPs from different price ranges, see how they rank them.
The " Can't measure everything " mantra leads to complete marketing non sense : burn in , cable that affect sound , audiophile SD Card ...
If subjectivity rules , this is what you can expect.
It's amazing how , when you read reviews from Headfonia , Headfonics ... , litterally every device is perfect. Fascinating , isn't it ?
When i read some impression on various forum about dongle like E1DA competing with 1k - 2k DAP in ABx testing , from people who have own anything from entry level DAP to things like Chord Dave ... And when i say competing , it's not only about measurements ...
E1DA maker can sell a " TOTL " sound , because he doesn't have to care about his line-up as he doesn't have one.
Does it tell the time better than a quartz? No: quartz is much more accurate.
Does it give the wearer goodies better than a quartz? Yes!
Approach with that sort of mentality, and it all makes a lot more sense.
And no, DAPs aren't worth it. If anything, a lot of them actually have fundamental problems, including poor battery life, bad/laggy UX and questionable file handling. In fact, when a $200 smartphone has a better SoC than a $2000 FiiO/AK DAP, something's wrong.
Not to mention, paying for a $2000 DAP and not having actual Google Play Store support because they couldn't be bothered in releasing it with an operating system that's within 2 years old? Disgusting.
When ever you ask people to somehow justify their purchase your going to get a self serving answer. Ask a fireman how important having 4 fire trucks in the fire station is, and you’ll get an an answer which will justify the purchase.
Still with the above said I have made a number of purchases since 2017 both desktop and DAP related. Much of the time a desktop is going to be the better value. It’s just easier to build a high quality amp and DAC with room. DAPs are miniature sound systems and you pay for the miniaturization going on. Basically it’s harder to make something small.
Interestingly enough I’ve been reading and following DAPs forever on Head-Fi. They started really about 2010 with HiFiMan making something which was considered an audiophile DAP. By about 2013 the market was flooded except many were pulling their hair out due to buggy firmware. Some DAPs even were no better than an IPod or phone. Of course your still going to have your audio nihilists who believe every desktop sounds the same and every DAP sounds exactly like a phone. Some people actually can’t hear a difference.
Fast forward to modern DAPs. They can reach close to desktop power. Still very few except the Kann Cube are going to put out desktop power levels. Still if your gear is easy to drive you could be fine with a DAP.
I own both the Sony 1A $1200 and the Sony 1Z $3200. The $ 2000 extra gets you maybe a 10% improvement at best. Also there has been new aftermarket firmware which has pushed the audio performance of the 1A right to the doorstep of the Sony 1Z. The last two days I’ve spent primarily with the $1200 1A Walkman and it’s really almost what anyone would need.
Different than a phone the Walkman 1A offers a increase in soundstage and better imaging and separation. Obviously you have more output power than most phones but the sound is simply clearer coming from a blacker background.
There were days when many thought the idea of the DAP was becoming outdated and old fashioned. And even now with these new Bluetooth receivers, you can get a lot of performance from your phone as a source. Heck, the 1A and 1Z never are able to stream due to being not Android. So you can stream from a service on your phone to the Bluetooth receiver but it’s not going to be HD quality like an Android platform. I do notice better sound from FLAC and play 320kbps as well as 16/44.1 and 24bit.
Most of this comes down to sound signature. And of the posters in the 37,000 post Walkman 1A/1Z thread can explain how the Walkmans have been able to cater to their personal sound signature preference. Is spending $3000 or more really needed? Only a person after they have spent time living with these DAPs, can answer that. Much of this sound perception is going to take at least 6 hours. Much of time the differences are not going to be able to be heard at a mall with a noisy environment around. The 1Z offers slightly more realistic sound. The imaging in the soundstage is thicker and farther front to back. There is a slight boost in bass and treble but also a physicality to the sound that is missing from the 1A response. It’s small but there none the less. How much someone concentrates makes the area appear bigger. It’s just a slight difference in detail. The 1Z is more analogue and the 1A more digital.
But listening to devices and experiencing music can mean that both offer something. So it’s like having different characters of playback. The $2200 Sony TA-ZH1ES dsktop beats out both the 1A and 1Z in imaging and separation. Still there is something very easy about having a hand held playback device like an audiophile DAP that has the sound you like and has 20-30 hours of playback from a single charge without even getting the slightest bit warm.
Our goal is to get lost in the music. But also be able to listen to music files that are easily accessible in life. Some DAPs are able to do streaming and some don’t. So if you do have a large personal collection of music you can put it on a 400GB card or a 1TB card and be set.
But usability and sound quality is what we are after. It depends on the individual if spending $3000 is critical. Personally I think someone could be totally happy with the $1200 Walkman 1A.
The " Can't measure everything " mantra leads to complete marketing non sense : burn in , cable that affect sound , audiophile SD Card ...
If subjectivity rules , this is what you can expect.
It's amazing how , when you read reviews from Headfonia , Headfonics ... , litterally every device is perfect. Fascinating , isn't it ?
When i read some impression on diverse forum about dongle like E1DA competing with 1k - 2k DAP in ABx testing , from people who have own anything from entry level DAP to things like Chord Dave ... And when i say competing , it's not only about measurements ...
E1DA maker can sell a " TOTL " sound , because he doesn't have to care about his line-up as he doesn't have one.
Burn in is real and some manufacturers even tell you how long. Cables DO make a difference and are used last to tune the sound of your system.To the best of my knowledge, one good SD card is as good as another.
- Which manufacturer ? Why professionnal manufacturers never talk about burn-in ?
- If burn-in is real , why we don't see measurements before burn-in and after burn-in ?
Subjectivity has nothing to do this time : if frequencies are modified , it can be mesured.
- Same apply with cables .
Sony said : for premium sound , you need this =
This SD card is 5 times more expansive than conventionnal 64 gb SD card .
Yes, the more expensive DAPs are more enjoyable and satisfying, but the cheap ones aren't bad. If you want the sound to open up more and be revealing, buy the more expensive DAP. If you want general sound enjoyment, buy the cheaper ones. You need headphones for the price range too....
This reminds me: every time I pass by the golf section of a mall, I always wonder if wearing those golf designer shirts and pants and shoes will REALLY improve your putting....
This reminds me: every time I pass by the golf section of a mall, I always wonder if wearing those golf designer shirts and pants and shoes will REALLY improve your putting....
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