“So the regular DAP and even the pricy TOTL DAPs are not everything. But if you have easy to drive IEMs (like most are) the damping factor is pretty much a non-issue. So even the Sony hard to drive IER-Z1R does show very small damping improvements taking the IEM to a desktop. It’s all about how much of an issue these things are and if your really noticing the problems and willing to attempt to subdue them. So yes, there are even small issues with the 1Z being combined with the IER-Z1R. Normally more juice can fix it, but for many the issue is close to non-existent. ”
Wrong way around: easy-to-drive IEMs suffer from the damping effect the most because of their low impedance. If anything, getting a low-output impedance DAP is one of the major reasons you'd go for a DAP in the first place for your IEM if you're chasing sound quality.
To be fair to those devices, that's the same as saying the chef doesn't matter if the ingredients are good. If you're into fine dining, very rarely will the ingredients cost more than the chef's time as well as the service attached to your meal.
Wrong way around: easy-to-drive IEMs suffer from the damping effect the most because of their low impedance. If anything, getting a low-output impedance DAP is one of the major reasons you'd go for a DAP in the first place for your IEM if you're chasing sound quality.
You know, I thought the same thing as I was reading what @Redcarmoose said. Though it's possible that slew and current have a further effect on damping and it reasons to stand that high voltage swing and/or high current amps control drivers better. As output impedance is lowered, damping factor increases, but current (at the same time) is less restricted. At least as I understand it - which I admit could be plain wrong. So better we'd better rely on a more in-depth response from an EE or more knowledgeable enthusiast.
You know, I thought the same thing as I was reading what @Redcarmoose said. Though it's possible that slew and current have a further effect on damping and it reasons to stand that high voltage swing and/or high current amps control drivers better. As output impedance is lowered, damping factor increases, but current (at the same time) is less restricted. At least as I understand it - which I admit could be plain wrong. So better we'd better rely on a more in-depth response from an EE or more knowledgeable enthusiast.
If you buy into slew rates being a thing, it's even less of an effect for sensitive IEMs: their voltage and current requirements simply are not that high. There's not as much 'catching up' and 'ramp-up' as there is for something that gobs watts of power.
A low output impedance is almost always the desirable design, like how a high input impedance is always desirable. By having low output and high input, current plays less of an effect in influencing the signal. High output impedance designs 'waste' power on the output.
The reason why a lot of amps have high output impedance primarily includes tubes (inherently high for most designs there), and to use as a form of attenuation in speaker amps with headphones amps (where the headphone output is just a reduced form of the speaker output).
Wrong way around: easy-to-drive IEMs suffer from the damping effect the most because of their low impedance. If anything, getting a low-output impedance DAP is one of the major reasons you'd go for a DAP in the first place for your IEM if you're chasing sound quality.
To be fair to those devices, that's the same as saying the chef doesn't matter if the ingredients are good. If you're into fine dining, very rarely will the ingredients cost more than the chef's time as well as the service attached to your meal.
What I’m explaining is simply the slight changes your going to notice by taking the IER-Z1R and moving from a DAP to a desktop like the Sony TA or DMP-Z1. It’s noticeable to some but not everyone. It’s splitting hairs, but also the reason you’ll find a few trying to find better damping factor. Another example is the Sony XBA-Z5; arguably the 2014 flagship predecessor to the IER-Z1R. Also being a hybrid of 2 BAs and a large DD (IER-Z1R DDx2/BAx1), the IEM is nothing spectacular from a phone, but get a more powerful balanced DAP or desktop behind it and it wakes up. A perfect example of an IEM needing juice. Even today the Z5 is well regarded all these years later and a bargain at it’s current $399 price.
Getting away from power hungry DD hybrid IEMs; most IEMs are perfectly powered by most DAPs in my experience. And while individual results can vary; it’s the sound quality of the DAP which makes it such a benefit while using easy to drive BA based IEMs, in contrast to a simple phone.
Edit:
In fact it’s been speculated that the power issue requirements of the 2014 XBA-Z5 were generally responsible for it’s lack of acceptance in the community. The fact that people failed to understand it needed power (even balanced power) to get out of the woods. In 2014 it was unthinkable an IEM woud need more power than a phone. Folks simply plugged it into IPods or phones and found the bass to be slow, murky and blurring midrange retail. But in my limited experience the XBA-Z5 is the ultimate example of power adding imaging and soundstage expansion.........also of course the bass going from foe to best friend.
What I’m explaining is simply the slight changes your going to notice by taking the IER-Z1R and moving from a DAP to a desktop like the Sony TA or DMP-Z1. It’s noticeable to some but not everyone. It’s splitting hairs, but also the reason you’ll find a few trying to find better damping factor. Another example is the Sony XBA-Z5; arguably the 2014 flagship predecessor to the IER-Z1R. Also being a hybrid of 2 BAs and a large DD (IER-Z1R DDx2/BAx1), the IEM is nothing spectacular from a phone, but get a more powerful balanced DAP or desktop behind it and it wakes up. A perfect example of an IEM needing juice. Even today the Z5 is well regarded all these years later and a bargain at it’s current $399 price.
Getting away from power hungry DD hybrid IEMs; most IEMs are perfectly powered by most DAPs in my experience. And while individual results can vary; it’s the sound quality of the DAP which makes it such a benefit while using easy to drive BA based IEMs, in contrast to a simple phone.
Whatever explanation, it's not damping factor or slew rate. I'm trying to minimise the amount of confusion and misleading information for other people reading this thread. There's enough confusion as it regarding subjectivity - no need to conflate the objective.
Personally, never bought too much into the power argument for most IEMs. They simply don't need that much juice, certainly not more than 100 mW. I'm convinced it's something else, though I can't put my finger on it.
That leads to my wish: amps and DAPs that would have a meter which shows you how much power you're actually drawing. Anyone know of such a thing?
The simple answer to the question - no, definitely NOT worth it. Someone upthread mentioned diminishing returns - if anywhere, here the curve is very steep. A 400€ DAP is generally very nice, both estethically and technically. Is an 800€ unit twice as nice? Or a 2000€ unit 5x as nice? Hell no. Throw in the mix that the choice of headphones/earphones has a much stronger influence on the "end result" than the difference between a mid-fi and a TOL DAP. Have I mentioned the recording/mixing/mastering quality of the music you're listening to? Crap recording will sound crap on a high end system, no matter what (like driving a Lamborghini on an unpaved road across the field)
If I were to compare to photography, I'd say DAPs are the camera bodies and headphones/earphones are the lenses - you invest (much) more money in lenses than in bodies. And the comparison is even better, if you think about muggles using their telephones to both listen to music and take pictures
On the other hand - this is just a hobby and there are insane moneys being spent on most hobbies.
Instant coffee , Starbuck's or Exotic Coffee ... none of them actually produce the coffee.
They sell it at different price, but it is still simple coffee.
I tasted the most expensive coffee in the World , Kopi Luwak.
While it tasted good (and i'm not a coffee guy ... ) and it don't matter , Kopi Luwak is expensive because it is rare.
AK4497 , AK4499, AK4495 devices ... are just simple branded coffee , but sold like it is Kopi Luwak.
Served with a gold cup (audiophile cable) because it will taste much better.
And if you use a silver spoon (audiophile SD Card), you will enjoy it much.
... Ah, and don't forget to let it cool down for a minute or two (burn-in), aromas will be transfigured.
I was listening to my Cowon Plenue 2 through my Tia Trio last night and noticed that it sounded spacey. The Cowon Plenue D sounds spacey too but on the littler side. I'd rather have an expensive spacey device being able to drive more expensive headphones. I'm happy with my expensive Plenue 2 and now looking to buy the Plenue L.
The simple answer to the question - no, definitely NOT worth it. Someone upthread mentioned diminishing returns - if anywhere, here the curve is very steep. A 400€ DAP is generally very nice, both estethically and technically. Is an 800€ unit twice as nice? Or a 2000€ unit 5x as nice? Hell no. Throw in the mix that the choice of headphones/earphones has a much stronger influence on the "end result" than the difference between a mid-fi and a TOL DAP. Have I mentioned the recording/mixing/mastering quality of the music you're listening to? Crap recording will sound crap on a high end system, no matter what (like driving a Lamborghini on an unpaved road across the field)
If I were to compare to photography, I'd say DAPs are the camera bodies and headphones/earphones are the lenses - you invest (much) more money in lenses than in bodies. And the comparison is even better, if you think about muggles using their telephones to both listen to music and take pictures
On the other hand - this is just a hobby and there are insane moneys being spent on most hobbies.
Thanks for a wonderful analogy of camera! I think I see the point better now.
But I still have doubts: If all these DAPs are electronic "things", can't they all be tuned into similar sounding devices? Or put it the other way: What parts in a US$3000 device that cost US$2000 extra to make it sound that much better than a US$1000 device?
Thanks for a wonderful analogy of camera! I think I see the point better now.
But I still have doubts: If all these DAPs are electronic "things", can't they all be tuned into similar sounding devices? Or put it the other way: What parts in a US$3000 device that cost US$2000 extra to make it sound that much better than a US$1000 device?
I meant spacey as in in Space, like in a space station or at a dark facility on another planet like Venus. A starry in a black background kind of effect of electronic sound texture .
Also there's the issue of compression.
I guess a TOTL DAP will make even 128CBR MP3s sound... Somewhat better than an iPhone would. But you still need to get something less lossy to play with to really take advantage of those devices. Granted, FLACs et. al. don't have anywhere near the premium price tag attached to them that TOTL DAPs and headphones and fancy cables have...
Also there's the issue of compression.
I guess a TOTL DAP will make even 128CBR MP3s sound... Somewhat better than an iPhone would. But you still need to get something less lossy to play with to really take advantage of those devices. Granted, FLACs et. al. don't have anywhere near the premium price tag attached to them that TOTL DAPs and headphones and fancy cables have...
Yes, modern Sony walkmans are capable of making 128CBR MP3 sounding better than it sounds through Sony’s various adjustable DSP functions. It’s like photoshop for audio.
What you will be missing out with using iPhones to playback music is the auditory immersion you get with a high performing DAP. It doesn’t mean the dap has to be TOTL to experience this effect.
If you can find a good synergy with a pair of iem and the dap, you will be enjoying music that sounds very engaging to listen to, even if it’s compressed music from YouTube/Spotify etc.
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