I liken DAPs to expensive cars.
Sure, you can go with an impala to get from A to B. You can listen to music from your phone. That's what most normal people do. They don't invest more thought in it, pick something that suits their taste from a mass market, and go with it. Gets the job done. But DAPs / fancy cars are not ABOUT getting you from A to B or "just" about listening to music. They're about being INVESTED in the whole process.
highly subjective thread, and noise floor is a thing. the iRiver hyper deluxe line (aka a&k) is really good for that. I like it more than hanging an iematch off something else for a variety of subjective reasons I'd rather not dip into.
you hit diminishing returns as you weight weenie your way up (to borrow a term from cycling), but you continually outrun some component of your chain as you go upmarket device by device. for me it's simply about getting whatever peculiarly specific sound signatures I'm looking for.
Yes, the more expensive DAPs are more enjoyable and satisfying, but the cheap ones aren't bad. If you want the sound to open up more and be revealing, buy the more expensive DAP. If you want general sound enjoyment, buy the cheaper ones. You need headphones for the price range too....
The funny thing is that the Sony audiophile SD cards actually do give off a lot less EMI. It's 100% measurable too: Sony isn't lying there. What they're lying about is it being a problem to begin with.
Thing is, if your DAP's shielding is so bad that you need a specially-designed SD card to resolve, why are you even considering a faulty piece of engineering to begin with?
When ever you ask people to somehow justify their purchase your going to get a self serving answer. Ask a fireman how important having 4 fire trucks in the fire station is, and you’ll get an an answer which will justify the purchase.
Still with the above said I have made a number of purchases since 2017 both desktop and DAP related. Much of the time a desktop is going to be the better value. It’s just easier to build a high quality amp and DAC with room. DAPs are miniature sound systems and you pay for the miniaturization going on. Basically it’s harder to make something small.
Interestingly enough I’ve been reading and following DAPs forever on Head-Fi. They started really about 2010 with HiFiMan making something which was considered an audiophile DAP. By about 2013 the market was flooded except many were pulling their hair out due to buggy firmware. Some DAPs even were no better than an IPod or phone. Of course your still going to have your audio nihilists who believe every desktop sounds the same and every DAP sounds exactly like a phone. Some people actually can’t hear a difference.
Fast forward to modern DAPs. They can reach close to desktop power. Still very few except the Kann Cube are going to put out desktop power levels. Still if your gear is easy to drive you could be fine with a DAP.
I own both the Sony 1A $1200 and the Sony 1Z $3200. The $ 2000 extra gets you maybe a 10% improvement at best. Also there has been new aftermarket firmware which has pushed the audio performance of the 1A right to the doorstep of the Sony 1Z. The last two days I’ve spent primarily with the $1200 1A Walkman and it’s really almost what anyone would need.
Different than a phone the Walkman 1A offers a increase in soundstage and better imaging and separation. Obviously you have more output power than most phones but the sound is simply clearer coming from a blacker background.
There were days when many thought the idea of the DAP was becoming outdated and old fashioned. And even now with these new Bluetooth receivers, you can get a lot of performance from your phone as a source. Heck, the 1A and 1Z never are able to stream due to being not Android. So you can stream from a service on your phone to the Bluetooth receiver but it’s not going to be HD quality like an Android platform. I do notice better sound from FLAC and play 320kbps as well as 16/44.1 and 24bit.
Most of this comes down to sound signature. And of the posters in the 37,000 post Walkman 1A/1Z thread can explain how the Walkmans have been able to cater to their personal sound signature preference. Is spending $3000 or more really needed? Only a person after they have spent time living with these DAPs, can answer that. Much of this sound perception is going to take at least 6 hours. Much of time the differences are not going to be able to be heard at a mall with a noisy environment around. The 1Z offers slightly more realistic sound. The imaging in the soundstage is thicker and farther front to back. There is a slight boost in bass and treble but also a physicality to the sound that is missing from the 1A response. It’s small but there none the less. How much someone concentrates makes the area appear bigger. It’s just a slight difference in detail. The 1Z is more analogue and the 1A more digital.
But listening to devices and experiencing music can mean that both offer something. So it’s like having different characters of playback. The $2200 Sony TA-ZH1ES dsktop beats out both the 1A and 1Z in imaging and separation. Still there is something very easy about having a hand held playback device like an audiophile DAP that has the sound you like and has 20-30 hours of playback from a single charge without even getting the slightest bit warm.
Our goal is to get lost in the music. But also be able to listen to music files that are easily accessible in life. Some DAPs are able to do streaming and some don’t. So if you do have a large personal collection of music you can put it on a 400GB card or a 1TB card and be set.
But usability and sound quality is what we are after. It depends on the individual if spending $3000 is critical. Personally I think someone could be totally happy with the $1200 Walkman 1A.
Thank you!
A truely "Sony boy" ! Just one question :why don't you try out some other DAP to reach even higher "goal is to get more lost in the music" ?
Yeah definitely, I enjoy reading things that educate me or clear my doubts (at least partially). For this topic, I wish to hear more on sound quality since this is still the No. 1 reason why DAPs are made (at least to me). If I can be convinced that price is not having a positive correlation with SQ, then it will really affect my decisions in future purchases.
Yeah definitely, I enjoy reading things that educate me or clear my doubts (at least partially). For this topic, I wish to hear more on sound quality since this is still the No. 1 reason why DAPs are made (at least to me). If I can be convinced that price is not having a positive correlation with SQ, then it will really affect my decisions in future purchases.
It's not correlated with SQ and it is at the same time. If you prefer to look at it objectively, DAPs have the following properties which directly correlated with sound quality:
- noise floor/hiss
- output impedance (aka. 50% of the reason people go 'why is there so much bass bloat' vs 'why is there so little bass')
- power output (aka. the other 50% of the reason people go 'why is there so little bass')
There are plenty of high-end amps which suffer from one of the above 3. For example, the WM1A only outputs 250 mW/channel @ 32 ohms (not enough to drive quite a few headphones), the FiiO M11 suffers from hissing with the more sensitive IEMs out there. It's all trade-offs and how much you're willing to settle for.
Thank you!
A truely "Sony boy" ! Just one question :why don't you try out some other DAP to reach even higher "goal is to get more lost in the music" ?
I should someday. And you are totally right that it’s hard to have an opinion on all that’s out there without hearing and trying it all. Yet if you read my post above you’ll notice I’m not saying someone has to buy TOTL....... (The original poster’s question). As I own two DAPs.........I’m simply trying to differentiate between the two price ranges. Also a secondary goal was to generalize between having a DAP or the alternatives.
I have heard a couple DAPs but only a small section. I hope I don’t come off as a total expert as I’m not. Though one of my main reasons for jumping into the Sony pool in 2017 was 4.4mm connections. Even now I look at 4.4mm balanced as one of the single greatest improvements in years. It’s just stronger, and sounds good due to more contact area involved. So my list of values was long battery life, 4.4mm Pentaconn balanced, Sony House Sound and relatively enough power. That’s it.
It’s a big deal to many that there is an issue concerning damping factor with full-size hard to drive headphones. DAPs as a rule offer less damping factor than desktops. New folks may not even grasp what the sonic effects of more output power mean to the consumer. Many new members think more power means the full size headphones get louder in volume. Desktops are not always about reaching better volume but desktops can offer damping factors which transform the full-size headphone experience. Just slightly better damping can get about one dB of bass added. To many it seems like more bass, yet it’s in reality more clear bass. People mistakenly think bass delineated more clear is more when it’s not. But along with that the desktops will have damping factors which will make the full-size headphone respond with better imaging. The soundstage will actually grow with slightly better damping factor. Lastly the damping allows for better transient response and timbre. So these are the plus factors when sitting down with a hard to drive headphone or even any full-size headphone and doing an A/B against a DAP and desktop unit. Though keep in mind personal listening levels are a huge factor when concentrating on damping factor. Super low volume level listeners are not going to push their full-size headphone and DAP experiences into damping failure as much. Meaning at low low volume bass and imaging artifacts are less.
So the regular DAP and even the pricy TOTL DAPs are not everything. But if you have easy to drive IEMs (like most are) the damping factor is pretty much a non-issue. So even the Sony hard to drive IER-Z1R does show very small damping improvements taking the IEM to a desktop. It’s all about how much of an issue these things are and if your really noticing the problems and willing to attempt to subdue them. So yes, there are even small issues with the 1Z being combined with the IER-Z1R. Normally more juice can fix it, but for many the issue is close to non-existent.
Head-Fi likes to have stuff be stated in black and white, when really these performance issues are a giant spectrum of grey. Many shades of grey where nothing is totally perfect. When it all is discovered it’s mainly about tone. If we can find a sound signature that we like then we will start to forget about some small technicality which is slightly off.
It’s probably safe to say people are choosing different DAP brands not only for their inherent superiority but also their color. It’s all about finding a color of tone that makes your listening musical. Our whole goal is to forget about the equipment and move on to music. But because their are many different tone needs lots of brands can exist.
Much of the time a slight boost in treble can give the impression of higher quality and better resolution. Even with experimenting with the large choices of firmware options you can come across one that pushes treble to the farthest point to get the sound of resolution. The question is if that boost can integrate with the rest of the tone, and how well the listener can tolerate the treble with the IEM they are using. Better gear has offered more resolution in my experience, yet it’s probably more about tone and listenability in the end.
In terms of sound I always think I'm getting a better perception of quality with my more expensive DAPs.... but I'm not that disappointed when I return to the cheap ones, but I like it that the expensive ones are there still for a luxury type perception.
I think of the more expensive DAPs such as the AK 320/380 as the sound opening up like a beautiful flower.... the cheaper Cowon D2 sounds more like a sweet drug. Kinda like comparing a bootleg with the proper product.
That's actually been my quest the past year alone. I'm starting to feel I'm on a fool's errand. P2P ratios continue to rise within the industry (calling into question "Is it worth it to spend more"), but the 'subjective best' still rests on the top shelf. I can't deny that. As much as I want to believe that these kilobuck DAPs are just appealing to super-elite audiophile 'flex factor' and don't offer subjectively better sound, I can't. I've heard some of them... with my own transducers (which I know well). They offer something absolutely audible (my opinion) that can't be achieved with an entry level setup.
Are they worth it? Well, that's a very personal question. To me, I've decided that I can't spend more on a DAP than the transducers themselves. And while I own $1400 IEMs, I've never owned a $1400 DAP. So, while I can't deny that a 3.5K DAP sounds amazing - it's not worth the 10% gain in SQ over my DX220-DX227-DX228
we all want absolutes - want to make sense of the world and tout how we know more than the next person. What kind of music are you into and why? You mean everyone is different and has their own preference? I suspect it's the same with audio gear and the way it conveys the music.
It’s probably safe to say people are choosing different DAP brands not only for their inherent superiority but also their color. It’s all about finding a color of tone that makes your listening musical
yes indeed. those slight colorations can bring about emotion and connection with the music that sterile dongles just can't seem to do - no matter how 'clean' and distortion-less they sound. Also, some colorations are better for certain instruments/genres I've noticed.
That's actually been my quest the past year alone. I'm starting to feel I'm on a fool's errand. P2P ratios continue to rise within the industry (calling into question "Is it worth it to spend more"), but the 'subjective best' still rests on the top shelf. I can't deny that. As much as I want to believe that these kilobuck DAPs are just appealing to super-elite audiophile 'flex factor' and don't offer subjectively better sound, I can't. I've heard some of them... with my own transducers (which I know well). They offer something absolutely audible (my opinion) that can't be achieved with an entry level setup.
Are they worth it? Well, that's a very personal question. To me, I've decided that I can't spend more on a DAP than the transducers themselves. And while I own $1400 IEMs, I've never owned a $1400 DAP. So, while I can't deny that a 3.5K DAP sounds amazing - it's not worth the 10% gain in SQ over my DX220-DX227-DX228
we all want absolutes - want to make sense of the world and tout how we know more than the next person. What kind of music are you into and why? You mean everyone is different and has their own preference? I suspect it's the same with audio gear and the way it conveys the music.
yes indeed. those slight colorations can bring about emotion and connection with the music that sterile dongles just can't seem to do - no matter how 'clean' and distortion-less they sound. Also, some colorations are better for certain instruments/genres I've noticed.
“So the regular DAP and even the pricy TOTL DAPs are not everything. But if you have easy to drive IEMs (like most are) the damping factor is pretty much a non-issue. So even the Sony hard to drive IER-Z1R does show very small damping improvements taking the IEM to a desktop. It’s all about how much of an issue these things are and if your really noticing the problems and willing to attempt to subdue them. So yes, there are even small issues with the 1Z being combined with the IER-Z1R. Normally more juice can fix it, but for many the issue is close to non-existent. ”
In response it’s just explaining that there will be very slight imperfections even using the Sony TOTL DAP and TOTL Sony IEM. It’s a spectrum of grey as it’s not normally an issue for most. Meaning even in the audiophile realm there will be a percentage which will feel the Sony 1Z will drive the IER-Z1R IEM with no issues pertaining to damping factor. Then you have the group that notice. They need either another more powerful DAP or the DMP-Z1 desktop or the TA desktop; or whatever desktop. Head-Fi is going to attract both the run of the mill audiophile and also the super elite which can be ever searching for audio nirvana at the outreachs of performance.
So it’s basically saying that there could be times when DAPs are not always powerful enough for even IEMs. Of course DAPs will not always be powerful enough for full-size headphones. They are shown in marketing photography as they work but not optimal. IMO
D spends on what you're looking for. If you want DSD 256/512 , PCM 384kHz or more. then yes.
In terms of SQ if you have revealing HPs/IEMs you may hear differences. I do hear less refinement on my NW-A55L (200€) vs NW-WM1A (1300€), but I used them in total different use cases:
Wm1a is for at home critical listening
A55L is for commute and at work, where sound quality is not so important
D spends on what you're looking for. If you want DSD 256/512 , PCM 384kHz or more. then yes.
In terms of SQ if you have revealing HPs/IEMs you may hear differences. I do hear less refinement on my NW-A55L (200€) vs NW-WM1A (1300€), but I used them in total different use cases:
Wm1a is for at home critical listening
A55L is for commute and at work, where sound quality is not so important
Instant coffee , Starbuck's or Exotic Coffee ... none of them actually produce the coffee.
They sell it at different price, but it is still simple coffee.
I tasted the most expensive coffee in the World , Kopi Luwak.
While it tasted good (and i'm not a coffee guy ... ) and it don't matter , Kopi Luwak is expensive because it is rare.
AK4497 , AK4499, AK4495 devices ... are just simple branded coffee , but sold like it is Kopi Luwak.
Served with a gold cup (audiophile cable) because it will taste much better.
And if you use a silver spoon (audiophile SD Card), you will enjoy it much.
... Ah, and don't forget to let it cool down for a minute or two (burn-in), aromas will be transfigured.
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Also a secondary goal was to generalize between having a DAP or the alternatives.
