[GRUMPYOLDGUY]

There is no question about this, by every metric the answer is no. With few exceptions these devices measure very poorly in terms of noise and distortion and are barely capable of achieving CD spec DR. Certainly nothing is able to reproduce the fidelity of a 24/44.1 recording. Not that you would you want it to... At a reasonable volume the quietest sounds would be imperceptible, and if the volume is increased to make it audible the loudest sounds would cause permanent hearing damage.

The best device I have seen so far has distortion products mostly 130dB down, SINAD @ FS of 110dB, only "issue" is FR drops off about a half dB at 20ish KHz. It costs about $70, but it's a (ultra-)portable DAC, not a DAP.

So if you're trying to make a decision based on "is it worth it", the answer is buy a cheap phone on eBay and a $70 external DAC and you will outperform just about every DAP on the market. Spend the money on good headphones instead.

For me, the convenience of a standalone device with a small form factor is worth the hit on performance (I only listen to CD quality anyway) and increased price. But yes, the ridiculous amount of snake oil surrounding these products is annoying to say the least.

 

[travellersolo]

EDIT
And I admit, we have gone a bit off topic from "are super high end multi $1000 DAPs worth it" to "is audiophile equipment worth it / why head-fi?" but it's a discussion worth having, at least for 'philosophical' reasons.

No worries mate, there is a pretty close connection between the two, at least to me. Thanks.

 

[travellersolo]

Even the title of this thread shows suspect of the ability of better DAPs in general.

I don't mean any disrespect toward super high ends, I ask because I really have no chance to try on those, obviously they are too costly. Just like I will never get a chance to drive a Bentley, so if I want to know I'll just have to ask people who do.

 

[Sebasistan]

For me, the convenience of a standalone device with a small form factor is worth the hit on performance (I only listen to CD quality anyway) and increased price. But yes, the ridiculous amount of snake oil surrounding these products is annoying to say the least.

For me it is basically that a) a high-ish, mid-tier DAP does sound significantly better than a phone or a laptop (at least, my SR15 sounds leaps and bounds better than any phone I ever had and also much better than my Plenue D) and b) I can pop in a fairly large SD card that contains all of my music and I can then carry that around with me wherever whenever. My DAP is the center of my music listening experience all over. I'm using it on the go with headphones and IEMs and at home it gets hooked up to my large bluetooth speaker. And even on the speaker, my DAP sounds a lot better than any laptop I've used with it. For my purposes, it's basically a hi-fi stereo system that I can take anywhere AND a repository for a fairly large music collection. And since listening to music and selecting from a large library of stuff is important to me, I am willing to spend a good amount of money on it.

 

[Redcarmoose]

I don't mean any disrespect toward super high ends, I ask because I really have no chance to try on those, obviously they are too costly. Just like I will never get a chance to drive a Bentley, so if I want to know I'll just have to ask people who do.

It’s a super important question. And as audiophile land is subjective and confusing you’ll always get a range of answers. Every response should be started with “In my experience.......”

Everyone has their own history. And because people spent a bunch of money then they want to defend their purchase. I mean no one wants to make a big mistake and be a fool with their money. Also people don’t want to miss-out on something. Folks will try and even somehow substantiate some reason why a group of people are mislead for spending so much or having something strange. It’s easy to say these folks bought it as a status symbol or that it’s expensive looking and shiny so it psychologically makes it sound better due to placebo effect.

The more expensive gear CAN sound better but it’s probably a lot easier to get to that level with a desktop set up. Meaning a person could get a nice desktop and be happy. There is truly not much difference between a FiiO M11 $399 DAP and a $3200 Sony 1Z. There is a small amount of difference but it’s there. Maybe 10% difference, but if you concentrate on that difference it becomes bigger. Also after you spend time hearing music a certain way, you are able to pick-out differences and possible drawbacks in other replay systems. But most of all folks need to discover what tone they are into.

I have a feeling your going to have what ever gear you want someday. Never give up trying! I was surprised too at one point getting nicer gear.

Cheers!

 

[psikey]

There is always the question if DAPs in general are “worthy” of ownership? For the longest time we only had desktops and IPods. So the question arises in concept first.

Why even use a DAP?

We had Walkman's before we had iPods! And I used to love my Carbon in 2004 (until wheel broke off!). Last mp3 player I had before going to the dark side of iPod.

The NW-MS7 was released mid-1999 as Sony's first foray into the portable solid state music player industry. (first iPod 2001). Saehan MPMan F10 & Rio PMP300 in 1998.

 

[denis1976]

Ask yourself :

- Which manufacturer ? Why professionnal manufacturers never talk about burn-in ?
- If burn-in is real , why we don't see measurements before burn-in and after burn-in ?
Subjectivity has nothing to do this time : if frequencies are modified , it can be mesured.
- Same apply with cables .

Sony said : for premium sound , you need this =

This SD card is 5 times more expansive than conventionnal 64 gb SD card .

Forget measurements, trust your ears, does the measurements brings tears to your eyes when you listen to a sweet and emotional voice?, you can see it looking to the measurements?

 

[magicalmouse]

So if you're trying to make a decision based on "is it worth it", the answer is buy a cheap phone on eBay and a $70 external DAC and you will outperform just about every DAP on the market

Interesting comment, i'm not so sure based on my personal hearing, i compared my fiio x7/am2 against the x7 with coax out attached to a mojo and there is a difference but the subjective improvement (certainly not 'night and day') does seem to alter depending upon the headphones or iems used.

Also it would be useful to know what $70 external dac (s) are being suggested

d

 

[Redcarmoose]

Interesting comment, i'm not so sure based on my personal hearing, i compared my fiio x7/am2 against the x7 with coax out attached to a mojo and there is a difference but the subjective improvement (certainly not 'night and day') does seem to alter depending upon the headphones or iems used.

Also it would be useful to know what $70 external dac (s) are being suggested

d

Fiio E17K ALPEN 2 USB DAC Headphone Amplifier

https://www.amazon.com/Fiio-E17K-ALPEN-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00RPD7KP8

$119.99

I purchased this as I was going to put something together with my Generation 6 IPod Touch 32GB. Above is my actual unit. The connection to get the Lightning Cable from the IPod to mini USB (the FiiO) was actually difficult to find so I do use it running 3.5mm to 3.5mm analog. Though even hooking the FiiO up to a laptop with USB to mini USB, leaves much sound quality to be desired as far as in comparison to something like the Sony Walkman 1A. I ended up simply using my IPod Touch for out and about due to the slim improvements in adding the FiiO in comparison to just the Touch on it’s own. Though like stated it maybe depends on the listener and IEMs used?

Also it should be noted that with good IEMs the difference between the FiiO M11 at $399, and this at $119 is pretty big. I’ve used both with the same IEMs, though different cables, using 4.4mm balanced with the M11. Meaning if I had a choice the M11 is an easy decision at $399!

https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-M11-Resolution-Lossless-Bluetooth/dp/B07QKXRSRT

 

[magicalmouse]

Fiio E17K ALPEN 2 USB DAC Headphone Amplifier

https://www.amazon.com/Fiio-E17K-ALPEN-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00RPD7KP8

$119.99

I purchased this as I was going to put something together with my Generation 6 IPod Touch 32GB. Above is my actual unit. The connection to get the Lightning Cable from the IPod to mini USB (the FiiO) was actually difficult to find so I do use it running 3.5mm to 3.5mm analog. Though even hooking the FiiO up to a laptop with USB to mini USB, leaves much sound quality to be desired as far as in comparison to something like the Sony Walkman 1A. I ended up simply using my IPod Touch for out and about due to the slim improvements in adding the FiiO in comparison to just the Touch on it’s own. Though like stated it maybe depends on the listener and IEMs used?

Also it should be noted that with good IEMs the difference between the FiiO M11 at $399, and this at $119 is pretty big. I’ve used both with the same IEMs, though different cables, using 4.4mm balanced with the M11. Meaning if I had a choice the M11 is an easy decision at $399!

https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-M11-Resolution-Lossless-Bluetooth/dp/B07QKXRSRT

This seems to contradict your previous statement?
d

 

[psikey]

For me, the convenience of a standalone device with a small form factor is worth the hit on performance (I only listen to CD quality anyway) and increased price. But yes, the ridiculous amount of snake oil surrounding these products is annoying to say the least.

I would have agreed until I got a Fiio BTR5 and using my S10+ as a source using UAPP (with MQA add-in too) its as good as anything I've had really for Tidal or my own files (via balanced out). Only £85 too. I always have a phone with me & never run battery down in a 24hr period. No idea how the BTR5 tests on the numbers but sounds bloody amazing for the price. The Hugo 2 still drove headphones best, but I only use sensitive IEM's these days. Even via LDAC BT it sounds great (use as a wired DAC indoors).

 

[Redcarmoose]

This seems to contradict your previous statement?
d

It kinda does and I knew that when I wrote it. I haven’t spent all that much time with the M11, but I almost purchased it due to it being so good for $399. Then of course owning stuff is different, meaning after you own stuff for awhile you truly get a better understanding of it. And not just the device but how you interface with it.

There is in my eyes a bigger difference between trying to use something like a straight IPod Touch or a FiiO E17K and a Sony 1A. The smaller difference to me is the difference between the 1A, and 1Z.

Meaning if I was just sitting around I would be totally entertained by the 1A. Even though the 1Z is better and that 10% is noticeably better, the 1A is still totally entertaining. Obviously this all depends on your IEMs. But DAPs really do offer a different experience than just a phone or just a E17K.

Obviously if someone had a harder to drive headphone or maybe even a hard to drive IEM the E17K would offer a quality boost? The E17K is no slouch at things. But everything the 1A starts to kind of add up. You get 4.4mm balanced, you get better detail and power, obviously too you can play higher bit rates like 24bit files and DSD files, which your just not going to be able to decode with an IPod.

I never owned the M11, but it’s amazingly powerful and great sounding especially for the price. Also notice I’m exactly valuing everything in accordance to price. With of course the 1Z being not really relative and the M11 being a great deal. Actually using the M11 with a balanced cable was staggeringly better than the E17K?

 

[Redcarmoose]

Owning the Sony 1A and demoing the FiiO M11 was an interesting test. The FiiO is $399, the Sony 1A is $1200. But amazingly the FiiO at first seemed really impressive. The only way to really know is to at least spend a day or two before really being able to compare the two.

It’s still dramatic on a short listen being the FiiO is 1/3 the price. On first listen the FiiO is authoritative and robust, maybe even more bass than the 1A. Yet others with more than experience and folks who made a mission to get the FiiO and live with it go on to say the extra money you spend on the Sony 1A gets you a more integrated sound signature. And really I did, kind of notice right off that in comparison to the 1A the response was slightly disjointed. The FiiO has less battery life per charge too. Still all and all it’s probably safe to say there has never been DAP for $399 that’s sounded as good as the FiiO.

 

[psikey]

Still all and all it’s probably safe to say there has never been DAP for $399 that’s sounded as good as the FiiO.

And yet it did nothing for me and I much preferred the Hiby R5. Unbelievably the BTR5 adapter (balanced out, wired) is the best Fiio I've had/heard and read others say the same (not tried the M15).

Hiby R5 was $/£329 last week instead of normal $/£399.

 

[Redcarmoose]

And yet it did nothing for me and I much preferred the Hiby R5. Unbelievably the BTR5 adapter (balanced out, wired) is the best Fiio I've had/heard and read others say the same (not tried the M15)

And the BTR5 is less money and simpler. But....but...that’s Bluetooth only? Haha.

Much of all this is subjective and is based on pre-set and regularly used sound signature likes and dislikes. And of course it depends how the player aligns the tone towards your preferences or away.

For me anyway the M11 was very powerful and had a warm pronounced bass section which was surprising at first. It had an analog sound. But again my IEMs kinda need that response? Where if someone wants a thinner more digital airy sound they may not like the M11 with their IEMs?

At least that was my set of first impressions. The M11 was very home theatre sounding. Actually never heard the Pro or M15, don’t really follow the threads.