WOW!! So much great and eventful discussion going on, love it!
Quote:
Was the $7k McIntosh amp a MC275, by the way? And a sub-$1K solid state amp was better sounding with the HE-6 than the McIntosh? Then I suppose synergy DOES matter with the HE-6. My Pathos Classic One MKIII integrated amp is actually not a pure tube amp but a hybrid amp: pure class A tube input stage for its preamp section, and solid-state output for power amp with oversized transformers. This imparts a more solid-state sound characteristic than tube.
The FirstWatt amps look interesting, but unfortunately it seems they are only power amps and not integrated amps, which means I'll also need to buy a preamp. There is also the space issue... the Pathos Classic One MKIII is one of the few integrated amps that can fit in a desktop system with limited space while delivering massive power of 70W per channel. For now, I'm going to stick to the Pathos amp, but if I move to a bigger house than I'll definitely consider a FirstWatt.
Thanks for your kind input, mate!
Nope, it was the
MC302 off the 8ohm autoformer taps. The dealer recommended the integrated
MA6600 for me, which may still be on that rare McIntosh discount, because they're coming out with a new version. I do think synergy matters, but in the context of quality amplification, not sonic signature which is subjective. I only found it to be better because the McIntosh was just
too warm.
It is correct that you would need a preamp of some sort. Something I have discovered, and many are realizing this as well who have tried it is that a LDR-based preamp a.k.a. "
lightspeed" That thread I linked was started by the original designer of lightspeed. There is not only a huge following on diyaudio, but audiogon as well. This thing can be built for peanuts, with a typical maximum price of $500. It's small too.
On a side note, I discovered that the HE-6, while being a genre master, is not friendly with sub-par recordings. Headphones like the LCD-3 or TH900 somewhat masks the little faults of such recordings at the expense of transparency/soundstage, while the HD800 makes listening to brightly mastered pop and rock songs (especially those subject the loudness war) unbearable. I think the HE-6 falls in the latter category, revealing faults in the source in an unforgiving way.
Yeah, not many TOTL cans tolerate crappy recording very nicely, but definitely not as bad as the HD800.
That F1J is more powerful than anything I've heard on the 6 short of the big speaker amps. Even then, that amp has the current flow not seen by any that's graced the table. Darryl has had many amps roll through the audio dungeon and the space heater has bested them all.
I just pictured Darryl sweating in an audio dungeon from the Class A dissipation with a big smile on his face. Good grief when I had a 9.2 system running, I had the AVR's amps, 2x Emo XPA-500s and the sub amps all putting out heat and it was just ridiculous after a few hours. Way, way too hot and stuffy lol. Definitely requires an audio closet lol.
Glad you made it down! I was unable to attend, but did pick up
my new gears on Saturday. I heard them at the studio so there was no rush to unwrap them last night. Going to do so shortly - will be keen to see if the monos have enough stuff to push the HE-6. And then listen to a simple source - iPod into the amps with and without the preamp and learn more about the new sound signature.
Can't wait to see pix!
Yay SO! Send us pics soon
First Bold:
I suggest you read up on Nelson Pass (AKA Papa) to get a full understanding of his design theory. This is a great place to start - https://www.passdiy.com/project/articles
At one time he mainly focused on low powered amps to drive high-efficiency full-range speakers. The First Watt Amps are know for it's minimalist pure class A designs.
Second Bold:
Why do you think that? This IMO this works out really well for us HE-6 folks. Do we really need a 200 watt power amp? Note. His low powered designs are a God Send for us headphone / HE-6 folks IMO. Also, take a look in DIY audio - he has a very large following. Ask Brunk..
Again, read to understand where Nelson Pass design theory leads you. Also he does have another company. Pass Labs, there you will find your high powered amps at a much higher cost as well. Most are not pure class A, but they are biased really high to stay in class A for longer periods of time before switching to class B. Headphones on these amps would most likely "never" leave class A.
Third Bold:
It seems your "stuck" on the power aspect alone. There's much more that comes into play besides power. When we talk about power to drive the HE-6 we are not talking about "loudness" or how far your volume knob can go. That's gain. The power we're talking about is mainly and IMO current reserve and the ability to give the HE-6 a full bodied sound and the current when it asks for it.
You say 'despite being a speaker amp" But these speaker amps are made to drive "speakers" Surly a headphone - even the HE-6 is not a more difficult load to drive compared to the speakers these amps are designed for.
The HE-6 is only hard to drive or considered power hungry when it's compared to other headphones. They are not hard to drive compared to speakers. So a low powered speaker amp fits the bill IMO.
Forth Bold:
Again, power ratings are not the only piece to this puzzle. I asked myself, what's the main difference between a headphone amp and a speaker amp. Now I'm not an EE by no means, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night
Maybe Brunk can chime in on this. I know both use transistors, capacitors, transformers and things. Some "may" can be used interchangeably I'm not sure.
However, the most noticable difference being used in both are the "Transformers" This is where all the current is held if I'm not mistaken.
In most headphone amps the most used transformers are r-core / c-core transformers. The Lyr use 2 (??)-core transformers. Some use toroidal transformers like the Beat22, GS-X mk2 and others. Audio-GD puts a lot of effort in his power supplies, so their headphone amps may be a little different. However, they are still relatively small compared to the ones used in speaker amps. For instance. Most headphone amps concentrate on small form factors, the smaller the better for some. Speaker amps don't have this restraint. Lets take a very cheap speaker amp - the Emotiva a-100 mini X, It's transformer is bigger than most headphone amps in their entirety. IMO this is the main piece of the puzzle. This is where the current reserve is kept. The bigger the transformers are the more current reserve is available.
The HE-6 requires a constant current flow to consistently sound its best. To maintain the thump and great bass response, to consistently tame and smooth out the treble, to always make the mids sound it's best for this headphone - the current has to be in reserve, and "Most" headphone amps are not able to accomplish this. I think it's because of the small transformers being used.
Someone please chime in and correct me where I'm not correct.
Fifth bold:
Again, the position on the volume knob relates to gain. However, when that volume knob is turned up like that, the question is how long can it maintain before it runs out of gas - so to speak.
+1 As usual, great post man. I do reiterate first and second bolds. Third bold - this is true, watts is a small part of the picture. Fourth bold - the "PSU section", not watts, is the very foundation upon which everything else is built. I liken it to mp3's, you can't retrieve what isn't there in the first place, no matter how good your cans and EQ is. Power is the very soul of our electronics, which is the very thing reproducing this music. Toroidals are overall the best type of "transformer", but it's not the only attribute to look for. This would be like building a speaker cabinet out of cement to eliminate its resonances, but you only solved one problem and ignored others -
mea culpa.
Anyways, power is the foundation, but again it's not the end of all your problems so to speak. I and perhaps Happy Camper (among others) are in the same boat as me. Instead of thinking "what sounds the best", I take the approach of "what does the least damage to the signal?" There's all sorts of trickery to get an amp to look perfect on paper - negative feedback, several watts, balanced operation, high quality passive components etc. but that doesn't mean they took "music" as the first and most important consideration. Mr. Pass had developed First Watt as separate from Pass Labs because he enjoys pushing the envelope, coming out with new products on a fairly rapid pace to avoid boredom, and has in turn graciously made his schematics highly available and encourages the diy community to test, refine, and allow the designs to speak for themselves, which in turn sells the amp.
I could go on for a very long time about preamplification and small signal loss throughout the chain, but I'll stop here and let others discover these things for themselves unless someone really wants me to delve further into the topic.
Have you considered that unless you have a number of different source devices, you can often bypass the need for a preamp altogether? For example, I have been using an Oppo BDP-95 for a number of years and its internal 32 bit digital volume control has no problem driving any of the numerous speaker amps to which I have hooked up my HE-6s. (Oppo output impedance ~ 75 ohms, amp input impedance 7,500 to 115,000 ohms) Although I eventually switched to a passive LDR volume control, it is still the Oppo on max gain that drives the amps; and if you want to listen to LPs you will also need a phono preamp, so I don't quite understand your requirement for an integrated amp? Most Class A amps are certainly not portable or lightweight but they really are not that large (well, a lot of them including the First Watt amps). Although heat could become a problem in the summer but if you have ac ....
You "can" bypass the dedicated preamp all together, but just how good is that digital preamp? Short story, the best digital preamp can never be as good as the best analog preamp. However,
with a 32-bit preamp domain, the average pot like a blue velvet is NOT better. That's not a statement, but a fact. 16-bit digital preamplification is easily beaten however, which is why there's such a distaste for it, it's carry-over from things of the past. There are however several pros and cons of current technology of both digital and analog preamps, but I can say this with certainty, a LDR-based preamp will take a while to be handily outdone. It's just a matter of time and the right genius to come up with an analog pre built-in the DAC chip itself with sufficiently low thermal noise and accuracy to render it obsolete, along with digital preamplification. Hopefully sooner than later! Preamplification is a recent topic i have a passion for and has room for vast improvements with tech in the future.
Cheers to everyone and enjoy the music!
Brunk
Now in-session...
