[bigfatpaulie]

Hello Everyone,
 
I've been reading the forums here quite a bit for a while and it has been an outstanding source of information.  Thanks for all the help you've already provided me with!
 
Now, I would say I'm a 'fairly long term' audiophile - about 15 years - but have always been so with home systems, not headphones.  About 8 years ago or so I started flying a lot and purchased a pair or Etymotic ER4s and to this day they are my 'good cans'.
 
In the home audio world, I've been lucky enough to have owned some pretty fantastic amps and pre amps, but never a tube set up.  Years ago I heard a paid or Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage powered by Audio Research hybrid solid+tube amps.  I was blown away by the life tubes brought to the table.  I've never had tubes in a home system probably because it has always had to do double duty (listen to music AND watch TV/movies) so I never felt is made much sense.
 
As of more recently my job has become much more desk intensive and, frankly, desktop speakers aren't for me, so out came my ER4s to the rescue.  But there is a problem, I can't hear my phone ring (or ANYTHING else for that matter) and after hours of use, being in ear, I find they get a little uncomfortable.
 
So, I started pursing a desktop open air system that would be comfortable to wear all day and I *want* tubes.  So, after much research, reading here and my $1000 budget, I think I want to get Sennheiser HD600 + Little Dot Mk III + Little Dot DAC I.
 
Here's my reasoning.  The HD600's seem to be renowned web-wide.  They have a golden reputation and are apparently extremely versatile.  From what I can tell, they are the 911 of the headphone world.  They excel in the comfort department and are open.  Plus, they are pretty cool.  Next, the Little Dot MkIII.  Another that piece that seems to have a golden reputation, with tubes.  Finally, the DAC I made the list (and here's were things get sketchy) is that it matches (visually) the LD MKIII.  This is going to be sitting on my desktop, so I would like the components to stack and ideally, look nice together.
 
Sorry for the long winded post, but here's what I'm getting at - I have never SEEN any of these items in person, never mind heard them.  I'm buying them completely based on what others have said - new territory for me in the audio world - so is it a solid choice?  Would you go for a different setup with the same budget (or less)?  Thoughts?
 
Thanks again, and happy listening!
 
-Paul

 

[mmayer167]

Hi Paul, and welcome from Wyoming 

 
I would definitely go with the hd-600 for your cans, it is a safe bet you'll really like them! As for amping and dac... I have had one little dot product, the LD 1+ which was a hybrid (Solid State with a Tube Buffer). I enjoyed the amp but it lacked refinement, build quality was good but not excellent. As far as DAC's go I would take a strong look at the ODAC (Objective DAC). JDS Labs among others sell it here in the United States. I have heard a few dacs in my day including the Schiit Bifrost, nfb-10SE, Nuforce icon hdp, udac2, I can say that the ODAC is on par with all of them or better than the last few mentioned. In my opinion the ODAC is 90 percent of what the Bifrost was for me. 
 
I have had the Schitt Valhalla but it wasnt really tubey sounding which i think is what your after. The little dot may be your ticket  
 
Good luck and enjoy your ride! 
 
~M

 

[steve2151]

You can save a decent amount of money by buying your HD 600 refurbished from Dakmart. They're a authorized Senn dealer and the headphones usually come in like new condition. That should give you an extra $150+ versus the retail price that you can use to step up to a MK IV or MK IV SE. I haven't heard the DAC I, but if you must have a matching dac, it seems like a respectable choice from the internals and gives you the option to go balanced later.
 
There's been a lot of good press about the HE-400 lately. While I haven't heard it myself, I do own an HE-6 and love the ortho sound. It would probably pair better with a solid state amp though since it's more of a high current, low resistance headphone. Something like an Audio GD NFB-5 or NFB-11 would be a reasonably priced all in one that matches well. That combo costs about $800 ($400 headphone, $400 dac/amp).

 

[KG Jag]

The HD 600 has held up as a classic for many years now.  Mine sound good out of both HiFiMan's hybrid headphone amps.  The affordable "baby" EF2A also has a built in DAC.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

Hello Everyone,
 
Thanks for taking the time to give me your thoughts.  I want to address each.
 
Mmayer167, thanks for the warm welcome!   I will have to do some more research on the Objective DAC.  I looked at it earlier in my search by passed over it because at the time I was more concerned about the amp and JDS only offers solid sate.  It was just sort of out of sight, out of mind.  I also looked at the Valhalla because the Asgard was so highly recommended, but a lot of people are saying the same things as you - the Valhalla isn't very tube esque.
 
Steve2151, thanks for the suggestion on getting the HD600 cheap.  I'm planning on keeping the paid for a long time, so I don't mind spending a little bit more and getting a new set - I'd sooner up my budget.  I had never heard of Dakmart - looks like they have a lot of interesting stuff.  Thanks for the link.  Also, the MKIII vs MKIV, because I am new to the tube world, I'm not really sure if I'm better off getting the MKIII + upgraded tubes or getting the MKIV with stock tubes - both at the same end price.  Do you have any insight?  I had a look at the HE-400 and generally people are saying they are comparable but HE-400 are closer to the HD650 in signature - a more 'V' shaped response.  For me, despite many calling it boring, I like milder lows.  But the HE-400 are FAR nicer looking!
 
I do have reservations about the HD600.  Years ago I had the opportunity to hear quite a few different lower-end Sennheisers (HD280, things like that) and they were very muddy and boomy.  I guess I am very cautious of Sennheisers that are "full figured" (which is why I'm not looking at the HD650).  I would probably prefer the sound of a company like Grado, but I find them uncomfortable.  
 
KG Jag, I had a look at the EF2A and read some unfavorable reviews on it  saying that for the money, there are far better options.  My concern with a company like HiFiMan and my budget is that I am looking at their entry level product.  What I've found *personally* is that when you buy a company's bottom of the line product, the cost of the 'brand' tends to be extremely high resulting is poor value, but lots of prestige.  
 
-Paul

 

[KG Jag]

Quote:

Hello Everyone,
 
...
 
KG Jag, I had a look at the EF2A and read some unfavorable reviews on it  saying that for the money, there are far better options.  My concern with a company like HiFiMan and my budget is that I am looking at their entry level product.  What I've found *personally* is that when you buy a company's bottom of the line product, the cost of the 'brand' tends to be extremely high resulting is poor value, but lots of prestige.  
 
-Paul

 
HiFiMan is a company that has had problems with newly released products.  They are also a company that fixes its problems.  I have two later issue EF2A's and neither suffers from the problems sited in the earlier reviews (e.g. gain control issue).  That is one reason why this new player in the market is known for some of the best values (e.g. HE-500) in the upscale market.

 

[MalVeauX]

Heya,
 
Hifiman HE-400 + Hifiman EF2A. You'll love it. I would do this over the HD600.
 
Very best,

 

[steve2151]

Quote:

Steve2151, thanks for the suggestion on getting the HD600 cheap.  I'm planning on keeping the paid for a long time, so I don't mind spending a little bit more and getting a new set - I'd sooner up my budget.  I had never heard of Dakmart - looks like they have a lot of interesting stuff.  Thanks for the link.  Also, the MKIII vs MKIV, because I am new to the tube world, I'm not really sure if I'm better off getting the MKIII + upgraded tubes or getting the MKIV with stock tubes - both at the same end price.  Do you have any insight?  I had a look at the HE-400 and generally people are saying they are comparable but HE-400 are closer to the HD650 in signature - a more 'V' shaped response.  For me, despite many calling it boring, I like milder lows.  But the HE-400 are FAR nicer looking!
 
I do have reservations about the HD600.  Years ago I had the opportunity to hear quite a few different lower-end Sennheisers (HD280, things like that) and they were very muddy and boomy.  I guess I am very cautious of Sennheisers that are "full figured" (which is why I'm not looking at the HD650).  I would probably prefer the sound of a company like Grado, but I find them uncomfortable.  

 
I think the HD 650 is just rolled off in the treble instead of being v-shaped like the HE-400. I think the HE-6 is very well balanced. Big selling point for me is the excellent bass extension and clarity - you can clearly feel the sub bass without any grain or excessive mid bass clouding the recording. If I was able to just get the bass extension at the $400 price point with the HE-400, I'd be very pleased.
 
The HD 580/600/650 are definitely more "smeared" when A/B'ed against the HE-6. The HE-6 is just as weighty, but faster and with a blacker background (that is to be expected given the $800 gap in price). The Senns do win on ergonomics and listening fatigue, but I'd take the HE-6 over the Senns 9 out of 10 times for a random recording. Heck, I'd take it 6 out of 10 times against the HD 800 as well.
 
Can't help you too much with the tubes as I'm mostly a solid state guy, but you read Little Dot's website for more detail. The MK III and MK IV are built on a different chassis as the MK IV is larger and heavier, while the MK IV SE shares the same chassis as the MK IV but comes with upgraded internals and tubes.
 
If you do go with the HE-400, you can get one of the Audio GD dac/amps for another $50 to $150 more than the EF2A. The latest revisions all support 24/192 over usb (versus the 16/44.1 on the EF2A) and have a variety of other options you might find useful (can be used as a stand alone dac or preamp, can toggle between multiple digital inputs, etc).

 

[bigfatpaulie]

Folks, thank you so much for all your input so far.  I your input is very much appreciated as you have actual experience with this gear.
 
KG, good to hear that your EF2A's are working well.  The problem is if they ship 5000 units, and 2 don't work well, those two people will write about it all over the internet, and the other 4998 people won't say a thing.  It's hard to gauge the consistency of things...  One thing I have to say I really like about the EF2A is the size.  Desk realestate is pretty limited and it's a really nice compact size.
 
Mal, that's pretty definitive.  What's even more interesting is that that combo is a little more than HALF the price of the other options I am considering.  You're a long time member here and have a great deal of experience with a large variety of cans and amps - I would really value more of your input.  I mean are you saying that, in your ears, the HE-400 + EF2A is the best solution (way) under $1000.  I'm guessing you have used the EF2A - did you experience any gain/balance issues?  Did you use the built in DAC, or something a little more substantial?  I guess what I'm getting at, and I absolutely mean no disrespect, but are you saying I'm better off with a EF2A vs a LD MKIII + LD DAC1?  Or is it more of a case, at this price point there isn't a point in jumping up like that with my budget?  What I mean to say, is that if I decide on the EF2A + HE-400, to go up to the HE-500 isn't an extra $300, because a better amp would be required, so the price jump is really like $700.  I hope I'm being clear...
 
Steve, I should hope the HE-6's are better than the HD-600's 

.  Price alone.  You know, it's funny, if I remove the want for tubes the choice becomes fairly simple (in my eyes).  But I really do want to experiment and this a much less costly way of exploring tubes than with home audio...  
 
One thing that is getting glossed over here is the comfort level of the HE-400.  From what I've found the HD580/600/650 are the most comfortable cans out there.  Fine.  How uncomfortable at Hifimans in general?  Has anyone swapped the band with something else, or added padding?
 
Thank again,
 
-Paul

 

[steve2151]

Ultimately, the headphone makes a bigger difference than the dac/amp, so given your budget, you should probably dedicate more funds to the transducer. If you spend all $1000 of your budget, you could pick up a HE-500 plus an Audio GD NFB-12. The nearly 3W at 38 ohm from the NFB-12 will give you more than enough power. One benefit to orthos is that they do have a very consistent sound signature from amp to amp as long as they are fed enough clean power. 
 
The Little Dot stack is better than the EF2A and NFB-12, but it doesn't pair well with orthos since OTL tube amps can't output a lot of current into a low impedance load. It may pair really well with the Senns, but I doubt it can improve them enough to surpass the HE-500/NFB-12 combo at $1000. 
 
HE-400 weighs 14.5 ounces while the HD 600 is just under 9 ounces. Hifiman does make good and cheap velour pads, but the HD 600 still has better cushioning, especially on the headband. My HE-6 with stock headband and velours is good enough for about 3-4 hours of wear, but my HD 580 definitely sits lighter on the head. If the weight sounds troublesome, people have had some success padding the Hifiman headband by gluing extra memory foam underneath it. 

 

[mmayer167]

In my opinion the hd600 had a fair bit of clamping force (which if I recall, can be fixed with some stretching), where as the denon's did not and are very comfortable, same goes for the beyerdynamics. I'm not sure about the Hifimans but they look pretty comfortable.
 
You might check into a Cavalli CTH amp? I really love mine. I roll through about 6 different tubes on occasion depending on mood, but the RCA 6CG7 clear top side getter is the best option in my opinion, it's pure detailed butter 

 You could commission a CTH from a few different people on head-fi, I had Mullet build mine. It'l cost you in the neighborhood of $300. Mullet does an excellent job with fit and finish and board construction is top notch. You could also keep an eye out on the for sale forums for a CTH, they pop up occasionally. The CTH is in the same league as the Schiit Lyr in my opinion.
 
I will be in Denver, CO at RMAF this year and I will have my gear with if you would like a listen and will be at RMAF as well.
 
Cheers, I hope I didnt complicate things by throwing the CTH into the mix 

 
~Marc   

 

[Mad Dude]

This may not be particularly helpful, but let me tell you that after having heard and owned a number of various dynamic, planar and electrostatic headphones, the HD600's are still my go-to headphones. There are many excellent 'phones out there, some of them are better than the HD600. And yet after having owned a couple of these superior headphones, the HD600 remains my favourite. Explaining the reasons would require a very lengthy write-up and much better phrasing than I could provide. Sorry, I said that this wasn't going to be very helpful.

Of course our ears and tastes are all different, so what sounds great to me doesn't necessarily sound any good to another person, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Graphicism]

I'd suggest taking a look at the Beyerdynamic DT880 (600 Ohm) as an alternative to the HD600. They're both on the neutral side with the HD600s being more relaxed while the DT880s are more forward and engaging. The Beyers are also much more comfortable, they don't clamp what-so-ever. Like most power hungry phones they will benefit from an OTL tube amp. The Sennheisers on the other hand aren't that picky and can be powered by any decent solid-state amp. If you're considering used a very nice tube/880 combo can be had for around $500.

 

[TwoEars]

As someone who has owned / owns the HD600, HD650 and HE-500 I can say that they are all great.
 
The HD650 is my favorite default headphone because it does everything so damn well and is so comfortable. I myself prefer it slightly over the HD600 but neutrality fans will want to go for the HD600. Both the HD600 and 650 are "all day comfortable".
 
The HE-500 is better than both but may not have the comfort you crave, great for listening sessions of up to maybe 3h or so. Other than that the HE-500 is one of the best bargains in hi-fi right now, I think they can go head-to-head with the HD800 and Audeze and they also respond very well to EQ:ing to suit your specific tastes.
 
All of them required good source and amplification to sound their best.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

Steve, this is more what I’m thinking now.  Despite it meaning that I would be moving away from tubes.  It just seems like this is going to give me the best sound for the money, and at the end of the day, that’s what it’s really about for me. 
 
Mmayer, I’m not afraid of a little DIY – my first HP amp was a headbanger.  It was a really fun project.  Unfortunately, if I go with the HE-500, I think this amp would be a poor fit though.  With the HD-600’s, it would be a different story.  I have to decide on the cans all over agiain…
 
Mad Dude, you are not alone in your feelings.  There are a lot of people out there who LOVE their HD600’s.  It defiantly has a very strong following.  You hit the nail on the head, however, that everyone is different in their tastes (hence all the different options) and your ‘idea’ may not be mine.  I appreciate your input, though!
 
You know, Graphicism, it’s funny – you can find anything you want on the internet.  What I mean by that is here you are saying that the HD600’s aren’t super amp picky, but I’ve read many people saying that they are extremely amp dependent.  What’s a person to believe!?  Thanks for the suggestion, but I could widen the range of possibilities all day; I need to narrow them.  It really has to stay as the HD600’s or the HE-500’s.
 
TwoEars, I’m hearing what you’re saying!  I keep reading that type of comment all over the place; the HD600 is more neutral than the HD650, but both are fantastic all around, but the HE-500 is clearly on another level. 
 
MalVeauX, I really would love an answer back.  Your answer was just so confident that it really peaked my interest.
 
So folks, after reading EVERYTHING I could find so far the number one option (at this very second, beyond that, who knows) I feel like I should go for the HE-500 + NBF-12 combo.  The thing is that if the HE-500 aren’t super comfortable, I would still have top notch pair as a second sent and then go for the HD600’s down the road.  I go into the office 3 – 4 days a week.  The other days I work (read play) from home so I really do have room for both options.  So what’s the problem then?  Well, I guess I live the compactness and simplicity of the HE-400 + EF2A.  It’s just a small, easy little amp/DAC.  Plus, comparatively, it’s cheap (well, less expensive).  But then would I feel like I ‘half a$$ed’ it?
 
The thing is with home stuff, I could always listen to the stuff, and when I wasn’t sure and got buried under the specs and marketing, I would just stop, listen and wait to see which one made the hairs on the back of neck stand up and that was the winner.  If only I could lend the hairs on the back of my neck to other owners.  Wait.  Never mind.
 
Thanks for listening!