What's the case for and against neutral sounding phones? (maybe its more than that...)

[CaptainLorax]

I recently purchased the Superlux HD 668B which has been continually described as neutral sounding which seems like it would be a good thing since neutral means that the sound is more exact to the original recording. After many hours of burning them in, I would say that the Bass sounds amazing and much more filled in then when I first purchased these.
 
But then I looked at this thread, which led me to this thread in which a head-fi member compares Maxell DHPII to the HD668Bs (both of which are supposed to be real bangs for the buck).
 
Taking into account Duncan's review from the second link I posted + this review of the HD668Bs, I'm seeing some opinions presented against neutrality.
 
Some opinions against neutrality (in this case, some cons about the HD668Bs):
 
1) admin (from the last link): "So far into the bed in, they ((the neutral HD668Bs)) are proving to be a very "correct" headphone but musically involving they are not (again, this may change with a few more hundred hours on them)..... they seem to convey all aspects of the music "perfectly", with robotic, metronomic precison but something is lacking.... a "soul" maybe?.... don't get me wrong, they are not "cold" sounding but there's just not that foot tapping quality that I like in a headphone.... very much like the LM-6171 opamp, fast, correct, revealing, microscopic but not "musically" involving..... like driving a simulated sports car.... you can get from A to B but you're not driving...."
 
2) Duncandun: "The Marked Men - I Must Be Dead, from their newest album Ghost (I heartily recommend this album to anyone who enjoys good rock and roll.) doesn't lose any of its Garage recording sound, these phones ((the colored Maxell DHP-II)) don't make anything seem more focused or clear than it should (as the HD668bs do, which kind of messes up the sound of this band). It's pure, fun, punchy,  punk rock. Thank you Maxell DHP-II, for providing this service to my ears."
 
3) Duncandun:"Go was a pleasure with the Maxell DHP-II. The winds were not lost in the overwhelming bass and electric noise in this song towards the end. I could still clearly hear them. Which is a good sign as they lose definition with the HD485s, the HD668bs produce them quite well also but the bass loses focus with them, I wont compare them to the Grados as that wouldn't be fair because it's not part of the Grado sound. Oh wait yes I will, the SR325is bled my ears figuratively with this song..... Everything is nice and clear (re: Maxell DHP-II), bass isn't overbearing but feels good. Vocals aren't muddied amongst the ridiculous bass, random guitar riffs and blasty hiphop beats.

---

I ask you fellow head-fiers, what is your opinion on the case of neutrality (and related sound issues)?
 
Which of these two phones do you think you would have chosen (assume they are the same price)?

 

[CaptainLorax]

I've found some threads similar to the topic of this one... if you don't want to reply I understand
Do you prefer colored or neutral headphones? (Started: June 21, 2009)
Do you prefer: Neutral / Warm / or Bright? (Started: Aug 27, 2007)
who likes neutral,who likes coloured?  (Started: January 10, 2010)
Neutrality vs Detail? Bright vs Silky? trying to understand the headfi lexicon (Started: Feb 27, 2006)

 

[EYEdROP]

Neutral sound can be considered boring and lifeless because there is no glamor to the sound. No "sparkly" high's, no "huge" soundstage, no "punchy bass". Just a plain jane type of sound.
 
Musical sounding headphones have purposefully emphasized sound in certain frequencies to make them stand out. Many times the bass is emphasized, which is understandable because people like bass. With musical headphones, certain details will stand out more than what was actually recorded.
 
Neutral headphones let you know what was recorded. Musical headphones transport you to a concert hall or makes the sound rich on purpose, to emphasize emotion. 
 
Its good to have both types of headphones. 
 
THats my take on it.

 

[Uncle Erik]

I've gotten sick of colored headphones and speakers. They're exciting at first listen, but they eventually become like a favorite song you've burned out on or a meal you've had so often you're tired of it. It's like putting Tobasco on everything you eat - eventually you'll tire of it. Since most audiophile gear is colored, burning out typically means that you're going to upgrade to something more expensive that's also colored and exciting at first listen. You'll burn out on it, too, and then buy something more expensive. While neutral, uncolored, gear seems boring at first, you get used to hearing the recording as it was intended. You'll instead focus more and more on the music rather than the flavoring from the gear. That's the only cure to upgraditis that I know of. I'll take neutral gear any day.

 

[kool bubba ice]

My NAGRAS sound like black & white, so I'd like a guilty pleasure headphone like the RS1 or D7000 to have around.. But my next big purchase will be the HD800 or LCD2.. I guess I just prefer neutral at the end of the day.

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

I recently purchased the Superlux HD 668B which has been continually described as neutral sounding which seems like it would be a good thing since neutral means that the sound is more exact to the original recording. 

Just as a small commentary, for music enjoyment that is not necessarily true, since not all albums are well recorded, so a neutral equipment can reveal the crappiness of some records. For example a bright or sibilant record can be irksome through neutral gear, meanwhile a dark or warm equipment (for example a headphone like the HD650) can make that album sound good, or at least good enough.
 
Personally I take neutral gear over colored one when the choice comes (coupled with an eq if necessary for some records), but I definitely see why some people enjoy colorations (and that is not getting into the pleasant harmonic distortions that tube produce vs unpleasant distortions of digital gear or other factors in the neutral vs colored debates). 

 

[joelpearce]

This isn't the only way to approach things, of course, but I don't buy into the whole subjectivity argument.  It's not just about what we personally like and don't like.  We have tastes, of course, but there are also some absolutes.
 
One of those absolutes for audio is the neutrality of the studio monitors that music is mixed on professionally.  Studios spend a lot of time, money, and effort making their monitor setup dead flat.  Why?  So that consumers will be able to reproduce how the music is supposed to sound.
 
I respect that.  When I find gear that's neutral, I get a little window into what the producers, mixers and musicians heard when they first put the music together.  That may not matter for loudness wars radio pop, but for bands that care--that makes a big difference.  When we hear neutral gear, we are hearing something as it's meant to sound, and neutral gear also tends to be revealing--we get to hear the little things that people miss listening to ibuds at 128k.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

This isn't the only way to approach things, of course, but I don't buy into the whole subjectivity argument.  It's not just about what we personally like and don't like.  We have tastes, of course, but there are also some absolutes.
 
One of those absolutes for audio is the neutrality of the studio monitors that music is mixed on professionally.  Studios spend a lot of time, money, and effort making their monitor setup dead flat.  Why?  So that consumers will be able to reproduce how the music is supposed to sound.
 
I respect that.  When I find gear that's neutral, I get a little window into what the producers, mixers and musicians heard when they first put the music together.  That may not matter for loudness wars radio pop, but for bands that care--that makes a big difference.  When we hear neutral gear, we are hearing something as it's meant to sound, and neutral gear also tends to be revealing--we get to hear the little things that people miss listening to ibuds at 128k.

That only really works if you use the same equipment as the studios, at the same distance away, with the same room acoustics, and at the same volume. Everything else is coloration.
 
Also, it may be preferred for well-recorded classical or jazz, but for any modern rock it's suicide. Not just the pop stuff. Everything made now is loud. Remasters of old rock, indie bands, prog rock, Radiohead. Everything.
 
So give me coloration over neutrality. Not crazy V-shaped coloration, but balanced coloration. A sound with peaks and dips to excite the music, but where the bass is in good proportion to the mids and highs.
 
However, even more important than that are aspects not totally or easily defined by frequency response. Speed, detail, imaging take priority. I can EQ the color in if I have to.

 

[Young Spade]

I got the K702s because I like the neutral sound; albeit it can get kind of boring when listening to certain genres. To refer to the "soulless" comment you made.... I think that when a phone has a slight emphasis in the mids/bass region (mostly the mids) it gives the phone "body" and "soul".
 
I find myself going up a notch on the mid and lower end section of the EQ when using the phones with acoustic/OSTs to give the phone... more life. That's what I do when I want some emotion anyway  
 
Of course when listening to pop/rap etc I boost the bass and treble. 

 

[Ypoknons]

Problem #1: locating neutrality. Head-fi is full of wars about what's neutral. And why not? We're dealing with headphones right beside your ear, not speakers (where flat = neutral if I understand correctly). Some headphones measure closer, that's true, but people still debate. 
 
Problem #2: achieving neutrality. I don't have much experience with the $1K club but most of the headphones before that have really achieved the ideal for the entire FR, sometimes it's a matter of choosing where to pick your poison. I'm sure even with really good gear you can still pinpoint flaws. A pretty much neutral headphone with one or two glaring weakness can make me run for colored hills really fast.
 
Ideas: A related question is how much and what kind of colorations you want, in the interests of good taste. 
 
I personally don't have a problem with colored gear, whether you introduce it in an EQ or somewhere in the hardware chain... I do appreciate good hardware and craftsmanship. But I would recommend at least one neutral setup.

 

[CaptainLorax]

What more is there to colored gear that can't be acheived by equalizing neutral gear?

 

[Ypoknons]

If I was here for 'achieving' of the ultimate in sound reproduction, yes I'd use a top technical headphone EQ'ed to my personal listening curve with amazing square wave performance etc... But I'm just some guy listening at home, and when I buy colored headphones, yes there's a bit of gear lust. I wanna see what these headphone makers can do with their hardware. 

 

[CaptainLorax]

(off-topic. I like your avatar. I'm on the last chapter of Miles Edgeworth Investigations right now)

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

What more is there to colored gear that can't be acheived by equalizing neutral gear?

Nothing really, unless like I said the colored headphone is faster, more detailed (real detail, not faux detail in bright treble), better imaging, etc.
 
Though there is something of a romanticism to some headphones (Grado RS1 in particular). A certain coloration that works magic with certain genres right out of the box with no need to EQ. Unless you're comparing the FR of the two headphones while you EQ, it can be hard to reproduce magic like that, if possible even then. With a 64-band parametric EQ it's possible to mimic just about any sound signature that relies solely on the FR. But I wonder if anyone has successfully reproduced the legendary Grado midrange in, say, an Ultrasone. And beyond that, I wonder what's stopping them from doing it.
 
With that in mind, colored headphones are the only way to get their magical sound signature on a portable device, because it's unlikely one will have enough bands to EQ it.

 

[chinesekiwi]

Quote:

My NAGRAS sound like black & white, so I'd like a guilty pleasure headphone like the RS1 or D7000 to have around.. But my next big purchase will be the HD800 or LCD2.. I guess I just prefer neutral at the end of the day.

Thread about neutral headphones..kool bubba ice posts...no mention of DT48.... shocked!
 
But yeah, I prefer neutral sounding (that includes bass people, it is not neutral if it doens't have adequate bass response end of story) but enjoy coloured headphones like Grados or in-ears.