[Slash47]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catachresis /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now, Slash, I'm a graduate historian too, so don't go getting Aristotle and Machiavelli confused. ...

Hold on, I wasn't confusing 'em. (I did mention I actually read didn't I?

) I just happened to read their works at the same time and it made me interested in politics much more, because it's a subject both their works apply to and I greatly enjoyed reading it all, whether I agreed with 'm or not.

(I was typing some more stuff but then I realized politics are a big no-go and you quite easily end up there...)

 

[DanielCox]

It hasn't gotten worse - students are just as lazy and stupid as ever. Now it's the job market that is forcing people to go to university which simply inflates the numbers - the ratio stays the same.

 

[notmuchcash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeusEx /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your AP Physics teacher also teaches life science?...

Our high school science dept. consists of 4 teachers and 8 courses. Almost every teacher has at least 1 integrated sci. class.

 

[Uncle Erik]

It isn't just the students. A significant number of adults have difficulty arguing or even being civil.

Leaving the politics out, yesterday, a co-worker made a number of assertions about an elected official.

My response asked for specifics, as I have not seen any of the assertions in the news or even proposed as bills. I asked if she could point me towards articles, legislative history or even a speech that confirmed what she said. I don't know everything and if some bill or proposal confirmed what she claimed, I wanted to know what it was.

In response, I learned that I was a condescending, elitist snob who was arrogantly flaunting my education and access to the Internet. All because I asked for evidence of what she claimed. Not that I disagreed or told her that she was wrong, I simply asked for specifics that supported what she said.

No, I didn't take it lying down. I told her that she was rude and that if she wanted to make an assertion, she should have examples to back up her point.

No response, save for a glowering, dirty look when she passed by.

In case anyone is wondering, she is a gushing fan of a particular "news" source that is long on anger and short on specifics.

 

[fenixdown110]

It's another case of put your money where your mouth is. I don't believe it unless there's a credible source of information to support it.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenixdown110 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's another case of put your money where your mouth is. I don't believe it unless there's a credible source of information to support it.

I agree. The problem is that public discourse has shifted away from civil disagreement. That, I have no problem with. If someone disagrees, that's OK. Argument has become a dirty word, but my definition has a lot more to do with persuasion. If you believe something, give some examples and make your case. I may or may not agree, but I have respect for people who argue this way. It's entirely possible to disagree and be friends.

Today, if you disagree, it seems like you're instantly pigeonholed into a particular label, personally insulted and various strawman arguments are thrown out.

It's almost all heavy ideology with instant demonization unless you're in lockstep.

Hardly anyone knows how to argue any longer. It is a shame. Persuasion is mostly dead and seen as a hostile act. I could point to numerous examples, but that would venture into politics.

The few people I know who can genuinely argue (or persuade) are wonderful to talk to. I have changed my opinion lots of times when presented with a better argument and persuasive evidence. There's no shame in that - that is how you learn. If you turn the argument into personal insults, the other side will never take you seriously.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif It isn't just the students. A significant number of adults have difficulty arguing or even being civil. Leaving the politics out, yesterday, a co-worker made a number of assertions about an elected official. My response asked for specifics, as I have not seen any of the assertions in the news or even proposed as bills. I asked if she could point me towards articles, legislative history or even a speech that confirmed what she said. I don't know everything and if some bill or proposal confirmed what she claimed, I wanted to know what it was. In response, I learned that I was a condescending, elitist snob who was arrogantly flaunting my education and access to the Internet. All because I asked for evidence of what she claimed. Not that I disagreed or told her that she was wrong, I simply asked for specifics that supported what she said. No, I didn't take it lying down. I told her that she was rude and that if she wanted to make an assertion, she should have examples to back up her point. No response, save for a glowering, dirty look when she passed by. In case anyone is wondering, she is a gushing fan of a particular "news" source that is long on anger and short on specifics.

you should be nicer to your support staff. Clients are the ultimate looser when your support staff is pissed at you.

You should have just nodded your head and say "that's interesting" <walk away smiling> Instead, now every secretary will know you are a "condescending, elitist snob".

 

[sahwnfras]

I'm 20 so im probally considered in this group.

**** all of you, its your fault for not creating the socitey for us to do better. You are the ones letting us pass, so why not slack. You are in control, take it.

 

[fenixdown110]

I'm not part of the older generation yet. I'm still considered part of your age group I think(25). I'm just aware of it and cautious. Very cautious.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree. The problem is that public discourse has shifted away from civil disagreement. That, I have no problem with. If someone disagrees, that's OK. Argument has become a dirty word, but my definition has a lot more to do with persuasion. If you believe something, give some examples and make your case. I may or may not agree, but I have respect for people who argue this way. It's entirely possible to disagree and be friends. Today, if you disagree, it seems like you're instantly pigeonholed into a particular label, personally insulted and various strawman arguments are thrown out. It's almost all heavy ideology with instant demonization unless you're in lockstep. Hardly anyone knows how to argue any longer. It is a shame. Persuasion is mostly dead and seen as a hostile act. I could point to numerous examples, but that would venture into politics. The few people I know who can genuinely argue (or persuade) are wonderful to talk to. I have changed my opinion lots of times when presented with a better argument and persuasive evidence. There's no shame in that - that is how you learn. If you turn the argument into personal insults, the other side will never take you seriously.

100% agree.

In response to your previous post that I did not quote, obviously you are not an arrogant snob. Quite the opposite, you are one of the most logical and level-headed posters of any forum I have ever encountered. It is a pity that your co-worker is so wrapped up in her nonsensical ideology and rhetoric that she forgot the most important ingredient in having an opinion: evidence to support it.

I meet very few people who can have a debate and not have it turn into a war of ideals and ethics. I am a very opinionated person, but I have a reason for my opinion. I very much respect people that can have a stance (whether I agree with it or not) and be able to back it up with logic and reason.

Like you said, our prevalent culture likes to label everything. If you are not this, then you must be that. It's disgusting. People hold onto some beliefs and opinions like they are rooting for a team. It is toxic for public discourse, and it is what is dragging this country down. To be honest, I do not see this changing, and we are circling the drain as a nation. Sad, but I find it to be true. I'd point out specifics, but I want this thread to stay open...

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif I generally agree with what you said, except for the "misconception". I have worked in Asia before, so I know from first hand experience that Asians do work harder than their American counterparts. They complain much less and they, overall, do better work. I have observed many high tech companies moving much of their R/D work over to Asia. I think cost was a factor, but I think, and ppl should correct me if I am wrong, most companies do get better results out of their Asian R/D offices. Granted, what I observed was a tiny data point; A potential anomaly, perhaps, but I like to think the opposite is true. Americans and America are too entitled.

I'll agree and disagree with some points. It's impossible to "define" or even draw a relevant comparison against an entire culture anyways. Heck, that culture varies hugely dependent on region as well, etc etc.

Sure, some parts of Asia are shining meccas. There are also the gritty and dirty industrial sectors. Then there's the corruption and wonky political stuff... I don't mean to be a downer on my own culture, there's a lot of good and bad. I'm just a bit more pessimistic than most.

 

[nkk]

I have to say that this thread is perhaps the most disheartening one I have read. To think that members of my generation could be so benighted is rather appalling. I have not noticed this type of intellectually deprave comportment at my college, but then again I also actively avoid people who would act in such a way, so my results a skewed.

On a related note, dealing with such ignoramuses in my previous school led me to adopt a favorite phrase: "Your argument contains internal inconsistencies that are irreconcilable within the domain of logical discourse". When someone says that to you in an argument, there is very little that can be said as a rebuttal.

-Nkk

 

[Kpalsm]

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, just the OP, but I wanted to say before I read through that I think I would enjoy your class very much, catachresis. I like your name, by the way, it seems paradoxically ironic to me...but that could just mean it's time for bed

Now, to read the rest of the thread.

 

[MrGreen]

Whilst I agree with what I have read so far, I do not agree with sitting in your computer chair whinging about it on a headphone website. If it concerns you that much, go do something about it. It's this sort of inaction that has ****ed the world up so badly (although I'd like to hypothesise that the world was doomed with the rise of man).

Anyone can sit in their chair and piss and moan about something, but by thinking that either people refuse to change or by not doing anything, arent you being an inveterate cynic and/or apathist?

Look at your own faults, and not just the faults of others.

 

[Spraj]

So I heard lumping all of the world's youth into one general statement is the new cool thing to do. I find it highly offensive that you would dare to assume that all kids think in the same general fashion. Furthermore, pull your head out of your own post-modern ass. If you find what "kids" think to be dismaying, perhaps you, AS A TEACHER, ought to influence them. Some of my teachers were extremely influential in developing my own world views, maybe you could try and do the same.