[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Could this be the reason why super-hardworking-gunner-type A students from India and China are taking over the world? I think we all need to have some of that wall-street mentality - meritocracy to the max. That's the way capitalism should work, too bad main street just doesn't get it.

yeah, man! Main Street needs to start packaging Collateralized Debt Obligations and selling them to investors in a giant, legitimized Ponzi scheme!

great idea.

 

[Dreadhead]

Somehow, people believe that a meritocracy should be judged only on the merits that they consider important. Greed is a merit (esp on Wall St.), having connections is a merit, even loyalty is a merit in some peoples eyes.

Just because the manager you (hypothetically) deal with appears to be a moron does not necessarily mean that a brilliant person would be better at it. I know lots of morons that bring in millions of work because they are personable and brilliant people who have to get work from them because they can not interact with a customer to save their life.

Of course this post is off topic but hey this is the lounge.

 

[Armaegis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you formally charge them with academic dishonesty ? I wanted to give my transgressors unofficial warnings (foolishness of youth and all that) and was told in no uncertain terms that I could not do so ! I can see why as well , an unofficial warning means they can keep doing it, whereas if it is on file , even if not on a transcript they might just think twice in future. Having said that I did once catch the same student cheating twice in two different classes of mine in different terms, stupidity that gross deserves expulsion and as a 3rd offence that is what it got...

Even going through with formal charges, they still get off with slaps on the wrists the first couple times. Typical punishment is to just get a zero on the first charge. It takes at least a second or third before expulsion, though even then it might just be for a year or two and they can return after that period.


Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Could this be the reason why super-hardworking-gunner-type A students from India and China are taking over the world?

Nah, the Asians are simply gaining due to sheer numbers and their increasing presence in the world infrastructure. There are just as many "bad" students over there as here, and I would daresay even more. The corruption is stupidly high too (and before anyone jumps on my back, yes I'm Asian, and this is what I've seen). As perhaps a telltale sign, when looking at the grades in my classes, the Asian students are usually not at the top of the class, but there sure are a lot at the bottom.

The misconception that Asians are super hard working and smart partly stems from their different teaching practices (many of which I disagree with from a "teaching philosophy" standpoint, but you can't argue with results sometimes). The other thing to consider from the rest of the world's viewpoint is that their exposure to Asians is typically from the immigrant, who is already of the driven mindset to start over in a new country and has to work very to support their family (especially if they're trying to bring the rest over). This mindset then typically transfers over to their children who are pushed to do extra hard in school.

And really, that brings up one of the main things in today's argument about kids in school... parental involvement.

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does your module have a webpage? I have to say it sounds like a course I'd enjoy auditing.

Bloody hell--stay away from my course, Duggeh. I've got enough problems. ;p

[Come to think of it, my last remaining fist thrown in resistance against the whole steaming bolus of ideological stupor is that I force them to go through English critic John Berger's Marxian analysis of the logic of advertising from the venerable Beeb show-turned book, Ways of Seeing.]

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash47 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Don't you think Aristotle isl #1 when it comes to arguing? He sure makes the most sense to me... Once I read some of his and Machiavelli's books right after each other I never looked at politicians in the same way. It was right before Obama's campaign as well, so that was quite interesting for comparison. Aristotle even made me join a political party Anyway, I feel your pain! It's a rant I hear quite often from others who teach. But you should take satisfaction in the fact that you're teaching the people who actually need it! You sure ain't preaching to the pope bu the sound of it

Now, Slash, I'm a graduate historian too, so don't go getting Aristotle and Machiavelli confused. The ancient and venerable art of dialectical rhetoric--Aristotle, to Cicero, to those Neo-Rublican Renaissance dudes--is held to be essentially, sustantively 'good' and virtuous and *true*. Quintillian says that the orator is "the good man speaking well," and that means that one *cannot* fashion a compelling, persuasive argument that lies. The order of the universe, and the golden backbone of reason that informs human discourse prevents us from being deceived by flimflam: rhetoric only works to make a true argument more persuasive.

. . . Until you get to Machiavelli and his skeptical progeny, especially the great empiricists like Bacon (who looked great in heels), Hobbes (The Monster of Monmouth), and David Hume (who IMHO was the cleverest som'betch ever). Cicero says that rhetoric and rational argument are aspects of human nature that clearly distinguish us from animals. Machiavelli says, by contrast, that the successful prince must be a centaur: sometimes he must be a beneficent, rational man, sometimes a ferocious lion, sometimes a fox in guile, a serpent in deceit, or a verminous sales rep for debt-refinancing in his brass-balled conviction that the lies he's feeding you are God's own truth.

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberidd /img/forum/go_quote.gif Great thread, here is one of my personal favourites. Recently I had to do some peer editing of a guys paper looking at the effects of heavy metal music on how men treat women. The paper looked "in depth" at 2 different studies. The first study was conducted by a woman who went to a number of heavy metal bars and interviewed the women there on the subject. She found that heavy metal music did make men more abusive towards women, but that it was not because of the music, but other factors. The other was a large study that guaged the behaviours and opinions of university and college age men (mostly from universities or colleges) towards women after listening to A) classical music, B) Christian heavy metal music, and C) sexually explicit heavy metal music and comparing it to their behaviours towards and opinions of women before listening to anything. This study found that while classical music seemed to have very little effect (marginally decreasing negative sentiments and behaviours), Christian heavy metal had the opposite effect (marginally increasing negative sentiments and behaviours), but sexually explicit heavy metal GREATLY increased negative sentiments and behaviours. My peer concluded that the first study was well done since it was completely unbiased as the interviewer was asking people who understood the world of heavy metal. He then went on to say the second study should be completely discounted for a number of reasons; to start with he said that there are thousands of different kinds of heavy metal and so by only looking at two different kinds you get no information on the effects of sexually explicit heavy metal (despite it being one of the "kinds" of heavy metal looked at in the study. He then went on to say that the other, more important reason for discounting the study's findings was because the people conducting the study weren't "one with the metal" and therefore automatically took a biased viewpoint against it (completely overlooking the safeguards that had been put in place to ensure a complete lack of bias)! By the end of the paper I was so convinced he was an idiot I almost cried because someone as dumb as that could have made it into an institute of higher education. I guess he took "higher" the wrong way!

I start out telling the wee rascals that I'm not taking any conclusions that rely solely on "X is more biased." I tell'em that we're all biased--especially the ones who claim perfect disinterested scientific distance from their subject--and that the issue isn't bias but rather whether we can marshal rational argument (and, hell, some sweet rhetorical tricks) to make our cases compelling. I shout and convulse, raging that it's the argument that gets judged--not the delightfully familiar or ungodly strange conclusion.

And I've given up hope that after a full term of having pedagogical grand mal seizures a majority of the class will get it. I mean, they're in college to take notes and learn what they're supposed to think, what's the point of asking them to tell me what's true if I don't already know the answer to the question?

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by justhavingfun /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is extremely difficult to find excellent teachers in the high schools with open mind who inspires students to the next level. How refreshing to know there are high school teachers who actually care how their students think and grow. Thanks for the great thread, catachresis. We need more teachers like you for our children. It is so frustrating for my children to learn in the school with all those teachers who simply don't care one way or another. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely few teachers who inspires my kids to grow intellectually, emotionally, and beyond but those are more of exception than the norm.

I have a lot of contempt for bad teachers (I've been doing it for a long time, and I know that *I* have been an unintentional bad teacher), but I have a lot of pity for teachers in general. The worst ones are the ones who are afraid of being humiliated by having their errors publicized, so they run their classes like indoctrination camps. The better teachers try to do the best they can, knowing that all one needs to do is to be perceived to be "swimming outside your lane" and you get the boot. I know a teacher who told her class of ten-year-olds having a rumpus that they were a "bunch of little heathens," and she was not only chewed out by the evangelical mother of one of the kids, but she was censured by her principle, who knew (in Tuscaloosa, Alabama) which side his bread was buttered on.

The bravest teachers seem to get fired or quit. Perhaps there's some mystical level of attained wisdom, at which point one smiles with infinite zen-like patience and lards one's arguments with all the high-fructose-corn-syrup enticements of profound eloquence. Cunning as a serpent, innocent as a lamb.

 

[catachresis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif This despite giving both students the most lenient penalty possibily, that aint gonna happen again, and this after extending deadlines for one of the students who was failing (well actually had already failed to be accurate) , no good deed goes unpunished as they say.

Indeed. Welcome to my nightmare. But you have to earn a buttload of clout to fail all the students who've earned a fail.

 

[Ttvetjanu]

Am I the only one thinking that everyone here is a bit too harsh against young people?

 

[justhavingfun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catachresis /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a lot of contempt for bad teachers (I've been doing it for a long time, and I know that *I* have been an unintentional bad teacher), but I have a lot of pity for teachers in general. The worst ones are the ones who are afraid of being humiliated by having their errors publicized, so they run their classes like indoctrination camps. The better teachers try to do the best they can, knowing that all one needs to do is to be perceived to be "swimming outside your lane" and you get the boot. I know a teacher who told her class of ten-year-olds having a rumpus that they were a "bunch of little heathens," and she was not only chewed out by the evangelical mother of one of the kids, but she was censured by her principle, who knew (in Tuscaloosa, Alabama) which side his bread was buttered on. The bravest teachers seem to get fired or quit. Perhaps there's some mystical level of attained wisdom, at which point one smiles with infinite zen-like patience and lards one's arguments with all the high-fructose-corn-syrup enticements of profound eloquence. Cunning as a serpent, innocent as a lamb.

There is no doubt our teachers around the country have an extremely difficult tasks to teach our children. There was a time when we give our utmost respect to our educators but those sentiments are far and between these days. When we encounter some not so good teachers, I don't particulary blame sorely on the teachers but multiple factors involved.

Let's see, overworked, very mediocre pay, extremely undisciplined students (some parents expect a miracle out of teachers), dealing with difficult and unreasonable parents,,,etc..., not to mention pressure from local and federal government mandates. Believe me, I know how tough it is for our teachers to be caring and inspirational to their students day and day out. However, even with all those odds stack against them, some of you never gives up to do the right thing. And THAT is why I appreciate teachers like you more than ever. Like so many of you already mentioned, this type of sentiments repeated each generation before us and I assume it will continue to do so in the future generation as well.

So keep up the good work and don't forget there are people out there who actually appreciate honest hard working teachers who have enormous responsiblities to teach our children.

 

[Armaegis]

What I find very disheartening is to see a teacher who just doesn't try anymore, because you know they've been defeated. I mean, don't all teachers start down that profession because they want to make a difference?

 

[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catachresis /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a lot of contempt for bad teachers (I've been doing it for a long time, and I know that *I* have been an unintentional bad teacher), but I have a lot of pity for teachers in general. The worst ones are the ones who are afraid of being humiliated by having their errors publicized, so they run their classes like indoctrination camps. The better teachers try to do the best they can, knowing that all one needs to do is to be perceived to be "swimming outside your lane" and you get the boot. I know a teacher who told her class of ten-year-olds having a rumpus that they were a "bunch of little heathens," and she was not only chewed out by the evangelical mother of one of the kids, but she was censured by her principle, who knew (in Tuscaloosa, Alabama) which side his bread was buttered on. The bravest teachers seem to get fired or quit. Perhaps there's some mystical level of attained wisdom, at which point one smiles with infinite zen-like patience and lards one's arguments with all the high-fructose-corn-syrup enticements of profound eloquence. Cunning as a serpent, innocent as a lamb.

so i deduce you hang your shingle among the Crimson Tide?

 

[wantmyf1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ttvetjanu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Am I the only one thinking that everyone here is a bit too harsh against young people?

x2. I'm not a teacher so I can't comment on the idiocy people may see in the classroom but to paint the whole generation with this brush...?

I have some friends who fit into the generation which is being spoken of on this thread. However they are generally well-spoken, intelligent and kind individuals. Some I'd even describe as thoughtful. Now this is obviously not a representative sample but they are very much different from the teens/young adults I see being described here.

Again, this bashing of the next generation has continued as long as there has been a coming generation to bash. Obviously discussions such as those on this thread will make sure the tradition continues.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VicAjax /img/forum/go_quote.gif yeah, man! Main Street needs to start packaging Collateralized Debt Obligations and selling them to investors in a giant, legitimized Ponzi scheme! great idea.

Wall street was selling CDO securities way before y2k. CDOs provide much needed "lubrication" in commercial debt markets. Some of the main reasons why $hit hit the fan was too much cheap credit, the screwed up bankruptcy law, and lack of real regulation of the derivatives market. You add on top of that directive from Washington that "everyone can/should own a home". With nonsense like that, it's not surprising we are where we are.

CDOs are not inherently bad. It was a culmination of greed, lack of regulation, failed law and stupid Washington policy (I am sure I can think of other factors).

Is this too political? I hope not.

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armaegis /img/forum/go_quote.gif The misconception that Asians are super hard working and smart partly stems from their different teaching practices (many of which I disagree with from a "teaching philosophy" standpoint, but you can't argue with results sometimes). The other thing to consider from the rest of the world's viewpoint is that their exposure to Asians is typically from the immigrant, who is already of the driven mindset to start over in a new country and has to work very to support their family (especially if they're trying to bring the rest over). This mindset then typically transfers over to their children who are pushed to do extra hard in school. And really, that brings up one of the main things in today's argument about kids in school... parental involvement.

I generally agree with what you said, except for the "misconception". I have worked in Asia before, so I know from first hand experience that Asians do work harder than their American counterparts. They complain much less and they, overall, do better work. I have observed many high tech companies moving much of their R/D work over to Asia. I think cost was a factor, but I think, and ppl should correct me if I am wrong, most companies do get better results out of their Asian R/D offices.

Granted, what I observed was a tiny data point; A potential anomaly, perhaps, but I like to think the opposite is true.

Americans and America are too entitled.