[Steve999]

Thank you Bigshot. It was your calm persistence that convinced me to try a test. I've posted the outcome in a couple of places. I await getting shot down for DBT. It is extraordinary how much people want to believe what they want to believe!

That's pretty cool. Congrats.

 

[taffy2207]

I've posted the outcome in a couple of places. I await getting shot down for DBT. It is extraordinary how much people want to believe what they want to believe!

It's starting (kinda). The Vultures are circling!

It's amazing how people react like you've personally attacked their Mother or something when you mention tests / bias with regards to a product they own. I imagine them all talking in Dalek voices saying "MUST DEFEND MY PURCHASE! MUST DEFEND MY PURCHASE! ".

It's crazy how people get so emotionally attached to a box with wires in (yeah I know, generalisation).

I'm beginning to think a lot of people on head-fi consume gadgets to fill holes in their lives.

 

[bigshot]

I await getting shot down for DBT!

The funny thing is that the people who refuse to do a DBT because they don't believe in them are the first ones to question your testing methodology if your DBT results don't validate their own opinion.

 

[krismusic]

I am getting a few people saying that a test isn't appropriate to Mojo. That it kind of creeps up on you. That is a view that I used to subscribe to but today's test result was not debatable.

 

[castleofargh]

Well. I just left my friend after an afternoon of testing and listening. We can confidently say that there is no useful difference in sound between the iPhone and the Mojo. We mainly ended up using the Sennheiser 600's as we could both listen to them. Straight out of the phone the phones volume was at maximum. Even then. Once the level of the Mojo was the same. No difference. A little more volume with the 600's might be useful. A simple amp would provide that. All decent DAC's sound the same. Including the iPhone dongle. A very enlightening afternoon. Thanks Bishot and Castleofargh.

so this was a test of the 2 DACs. but have you tried to test your IEM in the iphone vs mojo as amp sections?

about your results, IMO they're for you. you experiment and it helped reset your own ideas about the gears. because you are confronted to your preconceptions and your controlled experience saying 2 different things. there is conflict but it's between you and yourself so it's not too challenging to take a deep breath and decide to trust controlled experimentation over sighted impressions(although many audiophiles can't even do that). the hard part was to do the controlled test.
but your experience probably isn't going to convince many others, because to them this experiment is about a conflict between their impressions and some dude online saying something else. every fiber of their ego is telling them to trust themselves over anybody else. it's human and while it's irritating sometimes, we can't really blame them for being human.

another thing to keep in mind: failing one test doesn't mean there isn't something to hear. be it something you might notice another day with more practice, or something you might notice with slightly different testing conditions(like using test signals instead of music, which usually improves our hearing thresholds). or simply something that you don't notice but someone else might perceive because he's a youngster, a musician, a sound engineer, etc. it's important not to become an evangelist of the "no difference principle" just because one test failed to support audibility.
but if many actual tests by many people suggest the same conclusions, then it's a different story.

 

[bigshot]

The amp doesn't matter. You can get a transparent amp if you need it for cheap. A Mojo isn't cheap. It's important when doing tests to keep focused on "the prize". You aren't testing for testing's sake. You're trying to determine what makes a difference. You don't need to know that impedance mismatches will screw up sound quality. That has been proven and is generally accepted. His test was to find out if music through the DAC in the Mojo sounded better than music played on an iPhone. He found out. No equivocation. It isn't just for him. He found out what all of us who have done tests already know.

Show me a DAC that sounds different and I will be the first in line to say all DACs don't sound alike. I haven't seen a bit of proof to indicate that they sound different. Just excuses and equivocation and non-real world theories. To hell with that. I want to know. I'm not interested in genuflecting to complete smoke and mirrors.

Honestly, I think we entertain as much hoodoo in Sound Science as they do in the land of audiophools. We do it with unproven sloppy logic and theoretical hypothetical constructs. That is exactly what they do. And it's for the same purpose... to prop up self validation through waffling and what ifs.

WHAT IF redbook isn't enough? WHAT IF we can actually hear inaudible frequencies? WHAT IF vinyl has some magical mojo that sounds better than digital? WHAT IF spending a lot of money on an amp or DAC really does translate into better sound quality? WHAT IF compressed audio is throwing out important sound you can hear? I'm sorry... I've done those tests. I know the lay of the land. If you want to prove me wrong, do it by PROVING me wrong. Just show me the DAC that sounds different. I really want to find it too.

 

[Sterling2]

This thread has become a chapter from a Kafka novel. There's no exit and always just one more problem. A nightmare bigger than any stimulated by cholesterol medication.

 

[JM1979]

Well. I just left my friend after an afternoon of testing and listening. We can confidently say that there is no useful difference in sound between the iPhone and the Mojo. We mainly ended up using the Sennheiser 600's as we could both listen to them. Straight out of the phone the phones volume was at maximum. Even then. Once the level of the Mojo was the same. No difference. A little more volume with the 600's might be useful. A simple amp would provide that. All decent DAC's sound the same. Including the iPhone dongle. A very enlightening afternoon. Thanks Bishot and Castleofargh.

Very interesting. What model iPhone did you test with?

I have the iPhone XS and it sounds notably better than my wfie’s 8 and my work iPad (at least two versions old). It may just be more power because I can plug in my PM3s right into the Apple dongle and only need the volume to be 2/3 of the way up for it to be very loud. On the 8, I can go max volume and be comfortable.

 

[krismusic]

Very interesting. What model iPhone did you test with?

I have the iPhone XS and it sounds notably better than my wfie’s 8 and my work iPad (at least two versions old). It may just be more power because I can plug in my PM3s right into the Apple dongle and only need the volume to be 2/3 of the way up for it to be very loud. On the 8, I can go max volume and be comfortable.

I used the XS Max. An outstanding device. I take your point about amp power. From 7 on I would think the IPhone's will sound the same as they all use the dongle?

 

[JM1979]

I used the XS Max. An outstanding device. I take your point about amp power. From 7 on I would think the IPhone's will sound the same as they all use the dongle?

I would think that too; also because Apple doesn’t provide much hardware update info specific to audio when a new model comes out.

One thing it might be, is that with the X series, Apple added more speakers to the phone and perhaps needed a little more power in order to deliver that upgrade?

 

[bigshot]

It's likely with a luxury phone they would put more onboard power into it, expecting people to use more expensive cans with it.

If you have headphones that require amping, you will need either a simple headphone amp if you use an Apple phone, or a DAC with a built in amp if you use an external DAC. The sound quality of the phones and DACs are most likely all the same. I've tested dozens of digital audio components and properly amped, they all sound the same. The only difference is what sort of headphones they work best with unamped. That's more an issue with the headphones than it is the DAP or DAC.

This thread has become a chapter from a Kafka novel. There's no exit and always just one more problem. A nightmare bigger than any stimulated by cholesterol medication.

In this forum, trying to get people to think in a straight line and not go off into irrelevant technical tangents is as easy as herding cats. Everyone wants to toss in some tiny detail or exception to the rule that only applies in the atmosphere of Saturn or if you listen to your iPod while sitting on the generators deep inside Hoover Dam. I think they imagine that they're helping by dotting every i and crossing every t, but it doesn't take more than a couple of "what ifs" and "well actuallys" to completely sidetrack the path to a goal.

I'm really glad Krismusic was able to get all the way through his test without interference, because it shows that it actually is possible for this forum to be of use to people in a practical way. Now that he's got the switcher and knows a little bit about level matching and blind testing, he can go on to do more tests. That's how you crack the shell of bull crap that surrounds audiophilia so you can access the truth that helps you make your own equipment choices more efficient and effective.

 

[SergeSE]

During beta-testing of the new df-measurement procedure I performed measurements of 12 Apple mobile devices including almost all iPhones. Despite some problems with accuracy of my early measurements there is a clear evidence that all Apple mobile devices starting from iPhone 4 use the same audio solution. Their artifact signatures and levels of signal degradation are very similar to each other. So the measurements confirm, they all will sound the same, at least with 32 Ohm headphones.

 

[JM1979]

During beta-testing of the new df-measurement procedure I performed measurements of 12 Apple mobile devices including almost all iPhones. Despite some problems with accuracy of my early measurements there is a clear evidence that all Apple mobile devices starting from iPhone 4 use the same audio solution. Their artifact signatures and levels of signal degradation are very similar to each other. So the measurements confirm, they all will sound the same, at least with 32 Ohm headphones.

Nice research and thank you for sharing. Could you post the models you tested.

 

[Sterling2]

It's likely with a luxury phone they would put more onboard power into it, expecting people to use more expensive cans with it.

If you have headphones that require amping, you will need either a simple headphone amp if you use an Apple phone, or a DAC with a built in amp if you use an external DAC. The sound quality of the phones and DACs are most likely all the same. I've tested dozens of digital audio components and properly amped, they all sound the same. The only difference is what sort of headphones they work best with unamped. That's more an issue with the headphones than it is the DAP or DAC.



In this forum, trying to get people to think in a straight line and not go off into irrelevant technical tangents is as easy as herding cats. Everyone wants to toss in some tiny detail or exception to the rule that only applies in the atmosphere of Saturn or if you listen to your iPod while sitting on the generators deep inside Hoover Dam. I think they imagine that they're helping by dotting every i and crossing every t, but it doesn't take more than a couple of "what ifs" and "well actuallys" to completely sidetrack the path to a goal.

I'm really glad Krismusic was able to get all the way through his test without interference, because it shows that it actually is possible for this forum to be of use to people in a practical way. Now that he's got the switcher and knows a little bit about level matching and blind testing, he can go on to do more tests. That's how you crack the shell of bull crap that surrounds audiophilia so you can access the truth that helps you make your own equipment choices more efficient and effective.

Right-On, Right-On!

 

[bigshot]

During beta-testing of the new df-measurement procedure I performed measurements of 12 Apple mobile devices including almost all iPhones. Despite some problems with accuracy of my early measurements there is a clear evidence that all Apple mobile devices starting from iPhone 4 use the same audio solution. Their artifact signatures and levels of signal degradation are very similar to each other. So the measurements confirm, they all will sound the same, at least with 32 Ohm headphones.

For all intents and purposes, the Apple models before they started using their own branded DAC chips sound the same too. They might measure different, but I've had Apple products all the way back to the Power Mac 8500AV and they have all been audibly transparent.