What is the sound quality of iPhone, iPad, iPod (Touch)?
Feb 5, 2019 at 8:56 PM Post #586 of 865
Could be either of those things. If you level match, you might know for sure if it's the headphone or the amping. But the impedance should tell you pretty well whether they need amping or not. Lower impedance amping less necessary. Higher means amps are more necessary.
 
Feb 6, 2019 at 1:32 AM Post #587 of 865
Yes. That's the Mojo. This is Relic's post which mentions the output of Mojo.
Chord and Rob have confirmed many times that the line out mode is simply a digital volume preset, nothing is bypassed. Rob has also confirmed that the 'amp' is basically just the analogue stage of the DAC, you can't seperate the sound from the DAC from the analogue stage in the Mojo. There is no traditional seperate 'amp' section and that's how Rob designs all his current DACs.
don't worry too much, your(our) initial question is to know how much audible difference you get with your ears(not your eyes) between the phone and using it with the Mojo on you specific IEM. so that's the test you have to conduct. beyond that, it would of course be interesting to know what causes what and other tests could help for that. but it's another story.

Thanks for that informative link. So if I read correctly it states that the output impedance of the source(IE: iPod, Galaxy phone, etc) should be no more than 1/8th of the impedance of what that source is driving(headphone, earbud) and preferably less. According to several sites I checked the output impedance of the iPod 6gen Touch is somewhere between 2-4ohms(3.79 specifically acc. to one site which laid out the steps of calculating it).

So that Touch should not have any audible issues driving any of my cans - MDR-7506, HD-280 Pro, DT-880 Pro 250ohm, etc - other than having to crank it up a bit more when listening via the latter-most of those three.

What I was looking more for was descriptions of the effects of impedance mismatch: 'uneven frequency response', 'distortion', etc.
the thing is, several events can occur depending on the amp and headphone used, that are all somehow related to impedance ratios. here the unknown and the number one suspect for audible difference is the impedance curve of @krismusic's IEM. if that impedance curves moves from very low to pretty high within the audible range, then chances are that the frequency response will be affected audibly simply from using amplifier sections with different impedance output. but then again, if the minimum impedance value of the IEM is above 8 times the impedance of the various sources, then the potential change in frequency response should stay below 1dB and be a nothing burger. so it would really help to have impedance measurements from that IEM. I could do it if he sends the IEM to me, but Kris is being bothered enough already. maybe such measurement will pop out somewhere(perhaps it's already online and I just failed to find?). or if his listening test doesn't suggest much of a difference, then maybe we can assume that the impedance of the IEM is high enough and be happy with that.

some other potential issues purely related to impedance would be when a device has capacitors at the output, then the lower the impedance of the load(headphone), the more the low end will roll off.
in general a really bad impedance ratio can mean some low freq attenuation anyway, but nothing remotely close to what capacitors can do. so usually you'll just dismiss that part as it's assumed to remain irrelevant under usual circumstances.
a bad impedance ratio could also mean bad electrical damping(so how well the electrical signal controls the movement of the driver). if the headphone already has strong mechanical damping, you don't really have to care too much, but otherwise it could result in audible change. it's something you can experience with passive speakers pretty easily as they have really low impedance so it's easy to get a high impedance amp output and fool around with it. with headphones in general I wouldn't expect a clearly noticeable change purely due to lack of electrical damping. and for balanced armature IEM even less so. I've played with resistors to tune the signature of multidriver IEMs when the crossover offered a favorable result(rare), and in my anecdotal tests, I couldn't really tell the sound apart from simply applying a digital EQ with the same FR impact. the only time I did get a noticeable difference, was because my source couldn't handle a very low impedance IEM too well. so adding resistors reduced the demand in current and saved the amp section from distorting like crazy. but again that's a fairly extreme circumstance. even with cellphones, there has been only a handful of cases where the output started distorting horribly into even a 16ohm IEM pushed a little loud. it's something I try to look up when the measurements are available, and the same way, I now avoid purchasing IEMs with impedance going below 10ohm in the audible range, and that is usually enough not to worry about that last situation of the amp itself struggling with a low impedance load.
on the top of my head I think that's about it. if I made a mistake or oversimplified something I hope someone will point it out. the rest is a matter of power efficiency(ideally with impedance bridging, we'd want the amp to be 0ohm), but it's irrelevant for audiophiles. when we look up amplifier specs, they already give the power output into various loads. so we know from the start what's going on and how loud we can get with a given headphone.
 
Feb 6, 2019 at 2:51 AM Post #588 of 865
don't worry too much, your(our) initial question is to know how much audible difference you get with your ears(not your eyes) between the phone and using it with the Mojo on you specific IEM. so that's the test you have to conduct.

Can the Mojo act as an amp so you could switch between the phone using the Mojo as amp and using the Mojo as both DAC and amp? He's trying to compare the iPhone to the Mojo. Both of those need to have the proper impedance for the cans he plans to use.
 
Feb 7, 2019 at 3:15 AM Post #589 of 865
Can the Mojo act as an amp so you could switch between the phone using the Mojo as amp and using the Mojo as both DAC and amp? He's trying to compare the iPhone to the Mojo. Both of those need to have the proper impedance for the cans he plans to use.
No. The Mojo cannot be used as an amp alone. I think this is all getting rather overcomplicated. What I want to know initially is, does the Mojo improve the sound of the iPhone using my CIEM's which I use daily. As a side test I will also use my HD600's. If there is a possibility that there is some kind of electrical miss match in this set up, impedance etc then I would be very interested to know about that. Unfortunately Noble are very secretive about the specs. For reasons I don't know.
 
Feb 7, 2019 at 5:59 AM Post #590 of 865
No. The Mojo cannot be used as an amp alone. I think this is all getting rather overcomplicated. What I want to know initially is, does the Mojo improve the sound of the iPhone using my CIEM's which I use daily. As a side test I will also use my HD600's. If there is a possibility that there is some kind of electrical miss match in this set up, impedance etc then I would be very interested to know about that. Unfortunately Noble are very secretive about the specs. For reasons I don't know.

This 'Mojo' thing is starting to sound more like an added sweetener to me. Effects I could probably accomplish with an app or with the EQ on the receiver I use as a headphone amp. Have you contacted Noble directly regarding specifications? If, as you stated, they are kept secret, then I need not know any more!

As you might know, I'm the 'K.I.S.S.' guy of these forums - keep it simple, and less junk in the listening chain. That stuff's for the audiophiles.
 
Last edited:
Feb 7, 2019 at 12:50 PM Post #591 of 865
What I want to know initially is, does the Mojo improve the sound of the iPhone using my CIEM's which I use daily.

The answer to that is pretty certainly yes, but not for the DAC in the Mojo. It's because of the amp. A $50 Cmoy Altoids tin amp would probably accomplish the same thing. I have one of those that I would give you for your test, but I'm afraid it is deeply buried in my garage.

Most reports of one DAC sounding better than the other boil down to impedance mismatches that are the fault of the headphones, not the DACs. DACs are all designed to sound the same. Some headphones require amping and some don't. Both your IEMs and your cans are designed to be amped. That's why they don't sound the same unamped straight out of the headphone jack of the iPhone as they do amped through the Mojo.

The way to test whether the Mojo's DAC is better would be to amp the output from the iPhone so the impedance matches your cans. Then you'd be comparing apples to apples. Alternatively, you could use headphones with a lower impedance rating that don't require amping to do the test.
 
Last edited:
Feb 7, 2019 at 4:02 PM Post #592 of 865
The answer to that is pretty certainly yes, but not for the DAC in the Mojo. It's because of the amp. A $50 Cmoy Altoids tin amp would probably accomplish the same thing. I have one of those that I would give you for your test, but I'm afraid it is deeply buried in my garage.

Most reports of one DAC sounding better than the other boil down to impedance mismatches that are the fault of the headphones, not the DACs. DACs are all designed to sound the same. Some headphones require amping and some don't. Both your IEMs and your cans are designed to be amped. That's why they don't sound the same unamped straight out of the headphone jack of the iPhone as they do amped through the Mojo.

The way to test whether the Mojo's DAC is better would be to amp the output from the iPhone so the impedance matches your cans. Then you'd be comparing apples to apples. Alternatively, you could use headphones with a lower impedance rating that don't require amping to do the test.
So how about if I compare the Mojo to the I iPhone plus O2?
 
Feb 7, 2019 at 4:13 PM Post #593 of 865
What is the o2? I'm afraid I don't keep up on all the model numbers.
 
Feb 7, 2019 at 5:05 PM Post #595 of 865
Yeah that would work great. The only other thing is to figure out what to play the file on to go into the Mojo. Do you plan to use your computer, krismusic?
 
Feb 7, 2019 at 8:59 PM Post #597 of 865
You use the iPhone to play on the phone, what will you use to play through the Mojo? Or does it have an onboard Tidal player?
 
Feb 8, 2019 at 2:05 AM Post #599 of 865
You use the iPhone to play on the phone, what will you use to play through the Mojo? Or does it have an onboard Tidal player?
the Mojo is a portable DAC/amp, nothing more, nothing less.
I still think that you're over complicating things. Kris came talking about how he felt a legit difference using his IEM with the added Mojo, and we wondered how sure he was about that(sighted tests, uncontrolled, blablablah). that's what started the all thing and the question he still needs to test as properly as he can(ideally with the help of someone else to try and have a pseudo blind test at some point).
let him get there, and after that depending on the answer, we can try to torture him some more with different questions/tests.:imp:
 
Feb 8, 2019 at 3:34 AM Post #600 of 865
the Mojo is a portable DAC/amp, nothing more, nothing less.
I still think that you're over complicating things. Kris came talking about how he felt a legit difference using his IEM with the added Mojo, and we wondered how sure he was about that(sighted tests, uncontrolled, blablablah). that's what started the all thing and the question he still needs to test as properly as he can(ideally with the help of someone else to try and have a pseudo blind test at some point).
let him get there, and after that depending on the answer, we can try to torture him some more with different questions/tests.:imp:
Ha ha! Thanks for your consideration Castle. I'm visiting a good friend next weekend who is into all this stuff. So that's when I will do the test. He is in fact blind, so it will be a true blind test!!!
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top