What a long, strange trip it's been -- (Robert Hunter)
May 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM Post #3,391 of 14,566
The lesson for me all these years later is the futility of audio equipment design with no understanding of the engineering inherent in music theory.

Thanks, Mike, for another exciting preview of the wonderful MP. The more you write about it, the less I can wait... :wink: The close relation between audio gear design and (at least some) knowledge of music theory is very rare. That's why I think that an unique combination of right factors, people, knowledge and events like the one happening at Schiit right now could achieve what others weren't even able to conceive.

Let me ask just a question. I'm genuinely curious about whether you could tell us your experience so far with listening to some pop, rock or even a post-60s jazz track with your current Manhattan prototype. Do you feel those genres could benefit from Manhattan from a musical-theory point of view? Or would MP be an artificial flavor added to that kind of (modern) music, regardless of whether one could like it more than no MP at all? In other words, and in your opinion, in case of popular music would Manhattan restore an original musical harmony valid for all western music? or would it be applying a well determined (and working) music theory to a kind of music that was possibly conceived without that music theory in mind?

I'm leaving out classical music here, because, as I've already said in some other posts, I'm reasonably convinced that classical music will be the domain where the MP will absolutely shine and show the genius of the people who are behind it! :relaxed::relaxed:

Thanks for your (possible) reply and, of course, for all the work you and your friends are doing at Schiit!
 
May 25, 2017 at 2:26 PM Post #3,393 of 14,566
I'm leaving out classical music here, because, as I've already said in some other posts, I'm reasonably convinced that classical music will be the domain where the MP will absolutely shine and show the genius of the people who are behind it! :relaxed::relaxed:

How can you believe that?
A device can only listen to tones or pitch as an objective measurement.
It has no clue what kind of music it "hears".
No concept of duotonic, hematonic, pentatonic etc.
It would struggle with microtonic which you hear in Arabic or Asian music or glissandi.
Think Bohlen-Pierce scale to name one.
Even if it could do all that it could not weed out the numerous Schiit productions and bad performers in classical music.
You really have to brush up on your music theory before making such a claim.
Or..... know precisely what the PM is all about.
 
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May 25, 2017 at 2:45 PM Post #3,394 of 14,566
Last weekend, I started ripping a 67 disc box set of everything that Pierre Boulez conducted for Columbia ("Boulez: Complete Columbia Album Collection" https://www.sonyclassical.com/releases/88843013332).
I see that the collection includes a recording I can recommend for great sonics (wonderful performances as well) — disc 43 with Boulez conducting the NY Philharmonic in Stravinsky's Pulcinella Suite, Scherzo Fantastique, and Symphonies of Wind Instruments.

I have it on LP from decades ago, from a serendipitous purchase. The height of the LP era ('70s to '80s) was unfortunately also when domestic US pressings were at their worst quality. For good reason, record stores had liberal return policies for defective LPs (scratches, noisy spots, warping and other defects in the vinyl). During my weekly visits to Tower Records, I would seek out higher quality imported LPs (recordings on Columbia, RCA, Angel labels but pressed on Japan and Europe). For example, I acquired Columbia recordings of Szell, Walter and Bernstein on Japanese Sony LP pressings, and RCA recordings pressed in Germany. One day, there appeared from Sony Japan a few LPs in a limited, super premium version. From the Japanese notes, I could make out that these LPs had been mastered with special care and pressed on extra high quality vinyl. They were recordings of familiar warhorses that I already had too many copies of, except for this one from Boulez/NYP/Stravinsky, and I purchased it. I wondered why this recording was one of only a few singled out for special treatment, and I found out when I played it. It is one of the best sounding LPs I own, and the performance is excellent. I usually don't associate recordings from Columbia with great sound, but this is an exception.
 
May 25, 2017 at 3:32 PM Post #3,395 of 14,566
Being unsure of what you guys ment by Snowflakes I had to look it up. I found 115 different explanations. Didn't go through them all, but it's a very entertaining read. Be aware there's both political and sexual offending language so I'm guessing it's not suitable for snowflakes.
Here you are: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Snowflake

Stil being unresolved. Is this what you mean?:
Thin-skinned, orange-hued man who gets offended easily and tweets about it at 3 AM. Term may also be used for his "alt-right" followers who believe in alternative facts and become offended when presented with documented reality.
Or
Someone who thinks everyone likes them but no one actually does so they just float around from group to group tryin to chill but they jus cant cause ther wack.
Or
An overly sensitive person, incapable of dealing with any opinions that differ from their own. These people can often be seen congregating in "safe zones" on college campuses.
Or something else.
Number 3 is closest to my definition.
To me its the generation that has been told they are unique(hence snowflakes)in every way and they should never have to question themselves and they will always at least get rewarded for participating.
There are some crusty old snowflakes as well(my generation)but they are a minority. They always feel their opion matters and never shy away from pushing their believes to other people.
Although they themselves are truly unique they never shy away from demanding others confirm to what they think is correct/fair/hip/the way to think about stuff.
You can often tell its a snowflake when they preach tolerance but they are the ones that are always mad at others.
In the workspace they also are the ones that have many questions about what the company should be doing for them but they almost never wonder what they should do to deserve this.
This is only my definition of a snowflake but I hope it helps.
 
May 25, 2017 at 5:13 PM Post #3,396 of 14,566
How can you believe that?
A device can only listen to tones or pitch as an objective measurement.
It has no clue what kind of music it "hears".
No concept of duotonic, hematonic, pentatonic etc.
It would struggle with microtonic which you hear in Arabic or Asian music or glissandi.
Think Bohlen-Pierce scale to name one.
Even if it could do all that it could not weed out the numerous Schiit productions and bad performers in classical music.
You really have to brush up on your music theory before making such a claim.
Or..... know precisely what the PM is all about.

Well, the Manhattan Project has been a bit of a guessing game for us since Jason and Mike first mentioned it some time ago, so that was my guess and my little share of fun... :wink:
Now, I don't really know what Manhattan is and will be, but I have an idea about it. It may be utterly wrong and this wouldn't be a problem at all! Whatever Manhattan will be, it's going to be something really new and interesting.
I think Mike was kind enough to give us some really nice and precious hints, though, for those who did want to investigate further. And it seems to me that the more the hints he gives, the clearer the object becomes.
As for your objections about different musical scales, this is what Baldr said (and why I said what I said and I asked the questions I asked):

Genres helped by Manhattan: Classical, jazz, rock, of all kinds, any 2 or three chord music such as non pop country, blues. Even pop music if you can get by the autotune.
Genres not helped by Manhattan: techno, rave stuff, many forms of electronic music not based on melodic western musical theory, rap, pentatonic or most traditional forms of Asian music such as Chinese opera, pre-medieval western music, and that form of classical music based on twelve tone scales (Second Vienese School).

In short, if it is western music with conforming scales, you are probably OK.

Also, keep in mind what Jason once said, that Manhattan Project is a totally new concept, something never tried before:

And it is not another USB-SPDIF converter, nor another class D amp, nor another room correction system, nor another digital preamp.

We're calling this development The Manhattan Project. As in, never been done before. Components like The Gadget simply have never existed. It is not another anything. As Mike said, this is an undertaking of a magnitude similar to creating the first standalone audio DAC.

, so I think it's not unreasonable to expect it to be, well... something we couldn't even conceive before it was actually conceived... :wink:
 
May 25, 2017 at 5:18 PM Post #3,397 of 14,566
Number 3 is closest to my definition.
To me its the generation that has been told they are unique(hence snowflakes)in every way and they should never have to question themselves and they will always at least get rewarded for participating.
There are some crusty old snowflakes as well(my generation)but they are a minority. They always feel their opion matters and never shy away from pushing their believes to other people.
Although they themselves are truly unique they never shy away from demanding others confirm to what they think is correct/fair/hip/the way to think about stuff.
You can often tell its a snowflake when they preach tolerance but they are the ones that are always mad at others.
In the workspace they also are the ones that have many questions about what the company should be doing for them but they almost never wonder what they should do to deserve this.
This is only my definition of a snowflake but I hope it helps.

Thats a very good definition. Better than the ones in the urban dictionary. You should post i there. I predict that it fares well like's wise.
Most of them are stupid republicans telling how stupid the democrats are and the other way around.

At sea we have a long and proud history making fun of self proclaimed experts. We prefer facts and people who know their own limitations.
 
May 25, 2017 at 5:20 PM Post #3,398 of 14,566
This time I am listening to a little light Devin Townsend on my DIY transport, which at least gives me 60-70min between changes, twice that of the turntable.

Sorry, I forgot to ask. Is this DIY transport something that could eventually be released by Schiit, or is it just a personal project of yours never intended to be mass manufactured?
 
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May 25, 2017 at 5:40 PM Post #3,399 of 14,566
Musical librarian that Jeff was, he had a few drawings/sketches of old prewar necks which he gave to me to copy for my reference. At the time, I remember comparing the dimensions on the fretwork which were slightly different than my much newer neck, which I subconsciously stuffed until a few years later.

So it was the fret work that gave it away. Damn those Nazis and their equal temperament. Can I say that here? I think that I can. :ksc75smile:
 
May 25, 2017 at 6:01 PM Post #3,400 of 14,566
First thing I want to say in regards to the sound:
Some reviews painted a cold and analitical sound.
To me it`s not difficult, straining, overly intense or fatigueing AT ALL.
These are the (not so positive) things I read about the Gungnir and also what was steering me towards Bifrost.
Now, I cannot compare the two so I can`t say anything about Bifrost.

After about 5 or 6 hours of listening to different genres and styles I can honestly say: this is the most balanced, detailed, spacious and emotionally touching sound I`ve ever had in my live. It`s just right.
It`s almost like I`m high.I used to get high alot(honestly I used to sober up once in a while but this had to stop due to health problems and a kid running around.)
The one thing I missed the most is the intensity music has when you are high. The Gungnir almost gets me there again (after only one or two glasses of wine:)
Sure....I`m not spaced out and no the visuals are not as vivid when I close my eyes but the music is as moving as I remember it.
I`m getting a little contact high of this Schiit. It`s nice....really.

And mind you, it`s not even the multibit.

Oh man, go to the MB. It will really blow your mind (in a good way). I went from Gungnir to GMB. It was the best $500 I ever spent on this hobby.

Cheers,
RCB
 
May 25, 2017 at 6:01 PM Post #3,401 of 14,566
Careful boy's the secret report guy is lurking on this channel.
Watch out for his hammer.

I think I now understand your post. Sorry for having taken it personal, but it seemed that you were addressing my post just preceding yours.

But yeah, we expect the whole world to be able to speak English these days. But hey, we didn't invent that attitude. The old Whig Party of imperial England was notorious for it. And chauvinism was invented by the French, honh, honh, honh. :ksc75smile:

BTW, I had a vendor meeting with a Dutch gentleman today. An intelligent and affable fellow. Represented your country very well. :beerchug:
 
May 25, 2017 at 6:09 PM Post #3,402 of 14,566
Well, here I go on the second tale of the path to the Manhattan. This time I am listening to a little light Devin Townsend on my DIY transport, which at least gives me 60-70min between changes, twice that of the turntable. The problem is that my CD collection is not perfectly alphabetized as of yet, which requires that I have my next CD at the ready. That would be Mahler Symphony #2 Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra with the incomparable Elisabeth Schwarzkopf recorded in the earlier days of stereophonic recordings.

So I returned from Vietnam and finished school, went to work at Douglas Aircraft, went to South America, and finally got back in 1976. This is when I became interested in Stereo and Audio reproduction gear. I went to reclaim my Banjo from my folks, uncrated it and was devastated to find its neck broken, right behind the nut! Fawwwwk!!! That Banjo was a lot of good memories and money to me. My buddy, Jeff Simpson, was the owner of McCabe’s Long Beach and he put it back together for me. Most of his business was Martin and Martin wannabe guitars, with a few Gibson Banjos, Mandolins and their wannabes thrown in. McCabes was a acoustic shop only, nothing electric allowed. Back then, such a shop could still survive. Musical librarian that Jeff was, he had a few drawings/sketches of old prewar necks which he gave to me to copy for my reference. At the time, I remember comparing the dimensions on the fretwork which were slightly different than my much newer neck, which I subconsciously stuffed until a few years later.

So I started to practice again, sometimes in the good company of various members of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band who would hang out (usually individually) at McCabes from time to time. In their earliest of days, Jackson Browne was there singing with them, but that is another story. Anyway, back then my main interest was building various prototypes for what would become the first Theta gear. That is exactly what I did.

Theta Electronics was born and my Banjo was bugging me, as post repair the action was never what it had been in the old days. I decided to have a new neck made and found a Luthier in Muscle Shoals, Alabama who took the job. His name was Randy Wood, and he was doing work for a fairly obscure guy back then named Johnny Cash. It took a hundred years or so, and the Banjo finally came back. The action was fixed – it played like butter. But wait – God it was harmonically true. It sounded tonally perfect. It lacked the warm richness of the prewar banjos (like tubes) but it was note for note perfect, all up and down the neck. I went back and tried new banjos again, and not only was the warmness not there, but they were tonally messed up. (As were the newer guitars when I ran scales)

Hey, but genius that I was, I had it all reasoned out. The missing warmness was of course due to the not yet aged and seasoned wood in the post WW2 banjo pot. Further, the action and tonally perfect neck was due to the genius of a luthier who knew exactly What he was doing building a new, custom, neck. Easy as it would have been, it took me almost 40 years to compare the fret positions/dimensions of the fretboard on Randy’s neck to the original neck and more significantly to the prewar print copies that Jeff Simpson gave me. Not that the measurement differences would have done me any good at that time when I was living in two compartmentalized universes – Music and Hi Fi. The lesson for me all these years later is the futility of audio equipment design with no understanding of the engineering inherent in music theory.

Great post, Mike. That explains why you "liked" my posts of listening to Will the Circle Be Unbroken. The NGDB are cool folks. You know, they have a new live album recorded at the Ryman Auditorium. It's fun and Jeff Hanna really has a blast. Jackson Browne joins for a few songs, too.

NGDB Live 50 yrs.jpeg


All the Best -
RCB
 
May 25, 2017 at 6:12 PM Post #3,403 of 14,566
I think I now understand your post. Sorry for having taken it personal, but it seemed that you were addressing my post just preceding yours.

But yeah, we expect the whole world to be able to speak English these days. But hey, we didn't invent that attitude. The old Whig Party of imperial England was notorious for it. And chauvinism was invented by the French, honh, honh, honh. :ksc75smile:

BTW, I had a vendor meeting with a Dutch gentleman today. An intelligent and affable fellow. Represented your country very well. :beerchug:

Well, English is one of the simplest languages there is on this globe so there's the logic.
I will not ask you what you were buying from a Dutchman.....:dash:
 
May 25, 2017 at 6:28 PM Post #3,404 of 14,566
Being unsure of what you guys ment by Snowflakes I had to look it up. I found 115 different explanations. Didn't go through them all, but it's a very entertaining read. Be aware there's both political and sexual offending language so I'm guessing it's not suitable for snowflakes.
Here you are: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Snowflake

Stil being unresolved. Is this what you mean?:
Thin-skinned, orange-hued man who gets offended easily and tweets about it at 3 AM. Term may also be used for his "alt-right" followers who believe in alternative facts and become offended when presented with documented reality.
Or
Someone who thinks everyone likes them but no one actually does so they just float around from group to group tryin to chill but they jus cant cause ther wack.
Or
An overly sensitive person, incapable of dealing with any opinions that differ from their own. These people can often be seen congregating in "safe zones" on college campuses.
Or something else.

I think you basically pegged it, mate.
 
May 25, 2017 at 7:15 PM Post #3,405 of 14,566
Well, English is one of the simplest languages there is on this globe so there's the logic.
I will not ask you what you were buying from a Dutchman.....:dash:

A little more to it than that. Has to do more with intact post-WWII economies. And English is a polyglot language, that is, it has Latin, Germanic and Greek roots, which makes it easier to learn, and vice versa.

And Holland as a traditional trading nation required its citizens to learn French, when the known world economy was being run by the rich and landed nobility at all the courts, and after WWII, English is now a required language in your high schools, for the same reason.

Which also explains why the French resent English and insist you speak French while in their country, or they pretend not to understand you. They used to have the international language that everyone else needed to speak.

Not buying nothing (double negative for those who are keeping score). Was screening his LNG vaporizing sample probe for company template design. He acquitted himself and his product well, technically.
 
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