Using full sized integrated amp

[Navyblue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatsudaMan /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been quite happy with the sound through the headphones out of both my Nad and Atoll integrated amps, which kind of leads me to the point that I really don't need a dedicated amplifier for my headphones, and in fact buying one would not reap much better results. Is it really worth it? Am I right? I've been reading about amplifiers in the 300 dollar range like a Little dot MKV or a Musical Fidelity x-can. I really want to buy the Little Dot MKV! If they really are a substantial upgrade over my headphone out, it'd be a fun and productive purchase. Does anyone have any experience with thinking that there headphone out is great and then realizing after purchasing a dedicated amp that it isn't? I feel like I have two personalities: One that wants to believe that the headphone out is as good as it gets with something like my hd580s's, and the other that wants to believe that a Little Dot MKV would just sound sooo much better ----- so I can buy it!!!!!!!

I asked what you asked earlier, to keep long story short, there is very little people that has compared a dedicated and integrated amp. Even then, there are multitudes of dedicated and integrated amp with varying performance, not to mention varying taste.

I had been looking at the MkV too, but at the moment, my attention is with some other things.

FWIW, there is a guy in this thread that sold his MkV and chose his integrated instead.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navyblue /img/forum/go_quote.gif FWIW, there is a guy in this thread that sold his MkV and chose his integrated instead.

Guilty as charged. And to save you looking it up, the integrated is a Marantz PM6010, which others will be sick of hearing about by now.

For the record, I first became skeptical about the superiority of dedicated amps when I bought an MF XCan v2. I sent it straight back and bought a Marantz PM4000, which sounded to me about ten times better. Now I realise that the XCan v2 is not counted among the legends of hi-fi, but even so, that it could be so thoroughly trounced by Marantz's cheapest amp was an eye...er, ear opener. I've been skeptical ever since (whilst still keeping an open mind).

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MatsudaMan /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been quite happy with the sound through the headphones out of both my Nad and Atoll integrated amps, which kind of leads me to the point that I really don't need a dedicated amplifier for my headphones, and in fact buying one would not reap much better results. Is it really worth it? Am I right?

There are two threads going on right now that discuss this. This one and http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/man...-jacks-338299/

You need not read all of both to extract the main points. If a headphone or integrated amp is better with headphones is largely a matter of preference and the particular integrated/dedicated you pick. There are a number of integrateds out there with good headphone jacks, probably more than the conventional wisdom on this forum has given credit for. There are many stories on this forum and others where people preferred their integrated, or found the difference between their dedicated and integrated to be very small.

Most dedicated amps offer two advantages that I can state with confidence. Dedicated amps take up less space and consume less power. Not always, but usually.

A lot of people here have criticized integrated amps for their poor headphone jack design. At the same time, not all headphone amps are shining stars of amplifier engineering. There is some really simple stuff out that is mostly marketing over a simple design. There are some "glorified Cmoys" that actually do quite a good job, and some "triple flux capacitor specialized circuit nanotechnology designs" that aren't much of anything.

Headdie-Thanks for the update. It's nice to have some hard evidence about your experiences. After you test some more please let us know your impressions. Please also let us know if the D2000 sounds "tonally different" from the integrateds as theory states something should be going on there.

At what volume was the DT990 clipping? At comfortable (to your ears) volume or I think I need to see doctor volume?

 

[Headdie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by odigg /img/forum/go_quote.gif At what volume was the DT990 clipping? At comfortable (to your ears) volume or I think I need to see doctor volume?

I don't listen very loud. They begin to clip at comfortable level. I'll manage to complete my testing next weekend...

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

I feel like I have two personalities: One that wants to believe that the headphone out is as good as it gets with something like my hd580s's, and the other that wants to believe that a Little Dot MKV would just sound sooo much better ----- so I can buy it!!!!!!!

Well, I doubt any headphone out is as good as it gets, but I suspect quite a few of them are as good as many dedicated headphone amps.

Tim

 

[Headdie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headdie /img/forum/go_quote.gif To be fair, it was quick and dirty testing. I'll have to do a better testing job and there is some parameters that I want to play with before we can draw any conclusion.

Goal : to test how D2000 matches with different amplifiers.

Gears for this test

Musiland LILO III : DAC with heaphone amp (we forget the ADC part for this test)
Oppo DV980H : CD/DVD player (with onboard DAC)
Yamaha HTR5960 : AV Receiver (with onboard DAC)
NAD C720BEE : Stereo receiver (without onboard DAC)
Denon D2000 : Headphones

The Musiland headphone out is "for low to medium impedance headphones"...
The Yamaha headphone out is 100 ohms.
The NAD headphone out is 220 ohms.
The D2000 is 25 ohms.

Round 1 : Musiland head-out vs Yamaha head-out via D2000

Laptop > Musiland LILO III > Denon D2000
Laptop > Musiland LILO III > Yamaha HTR5960 > Denon D2000 (using the LILO DAC instead of the Yam DAC)

Round 2 : Musiland head-out vs NAD head-out via D2000

Laptop > Musiland LILO III > Denon D2000
Laptop > Musiland LILO III > NAD C720BEE > Denon D2000

Round 3 : Yamaha head-out vs NAD head-out via D2000

Oppo DV980H > Yamaha HTR5960 > Denon D2000 (using the Oppo DAC instead of the Yam DAC)
Oppo DV980H > NAD C720BEE > Denon D2000

The Yam set in pure direct mode, to bypass the DSP and tone controls.
The NAD set in tone defeat mode, to bypass tone controls.

Well, that's how I plan to do it. Tell me if you see how to improve this funny test...

This one's mainly for you Odigg.

Regards,

Edit : Hoping it's a bit clearer like this...

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headdie /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, that's about it! Tell me if you see how to improve this funny test... Regards,

Yeah - tell us what all those names and numbers stand for - what components are we talking about? DAC with built-in headphone amp? CDP? Integrated amp? What's what?

Tim

 

[Headdie]

I told headroom.com that I was quite happy with the sound of my DT990 through a NAD headphone out at 220 ohms . I told them that I was considering a DT880 to upgrade my old DT990. I asked if a DT880 (250ohms) would better match my NAD than a D2000 (25ohms). The answer was stick with the D2000 if you like the DT990 sound...

I asked NAD if I'd be better with an impedance adapter with a D2000. The answer was "the adapter will help as the 25 ohms connected directly [to the 220 ohms output] will require the volume to be turned up higher"... Well, I'm not sure I understand the answer. Actually, I can't get the volume higher the 9 o'clock if I want to save my ears.

Anyway, just to share those answers, hoping they can help someone out there...

Regards,

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Well, that's how I plan to do it. Tell me if you see how to improve this funny test...

If it were me, I'd keep the source the same in all cases so the only variable is the ampfication. In other words, either use the laptop or the Oppo but don't mix them, and in every case, use the Musiland DAC so all things are the same except for the amp.

Tim

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headdie /img/forum/go_quote.gif I asked NAD if I'd be better with an impedance adapter with a D2000. The answer was "the adapter will help as the 25 ohms connected directly [to the 220 ohms output] will require the volume to be turned up higher"... Well, I'm not sure I understand the answer. Actually, I can't get the volume higher the 9 o'clock if I want to save my ears. Regards,

Sorry for the late reply. I got a hi-fi ergonomic keyboard and typing on it is a pain. I keep mixing up keys! I'm guessing they want you to increase the resistance with an adapter, thus lowering the power out of the amp, and so you get more room to play with the volume.

Did you get a chance to run the test yet. I'm really curious about the results. Thanks for doing it. Your setup looks good.

 

[Headdie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by odigg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm guessing they want you to increase the resistance with an adapter, thus lowering the power out of the amp, and so you get more room to play with the volume.

I'm still uncertain about an impedance adapter. Turning the volume between 7 and 9 o'clock is ok for me. My D2000 sounds really good directly out of the 220 ohms jack. I don't hear hiss, sharp or aggressive sound... Anyway, I risk to try it simply by curiosity... I was thinking about a 200 ohms adapter... But Meier says the adapter should be no more than 3 to 4 times the headphone impedance I guess... And someone else on headfi told me no more than twice the phone impedance... Any other advice?

Quote:

Originally Posted by odigg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did you get a chance to run the test yet. I'm really curious about the results.

Not yet. I have a lot of work to do these days. I plan to do it later in July, when I'll have the time to do it carefully.

 

[vvanrij]

Hmm I also started a thread about this, stupid of me not to look here, but my discovery was that I like my NAD's headphone out better than my MKIVse.... I so hope that I'm wrong

 

[krmathis]

I have an incoming RWA Signature 30.2 amplifier, which will be paired up with an AKG K1000 and Stax SR-007BL (through a Stax SRD-7 Pro).
Should give me an idea how integrated speaker amplifiers match up with headphones.

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headdie /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm still uncertain about an impedance adapter. Turning the volume between 7 and 9 o'clock is ok for me. My D2000 sounds really good directly out of the 220 ohms jack. I don't hear hiss, sharp or aggressive sound... Anyway, I risk to try it simply by curiosity... I was thinking about a 200 ohms adapter... But Meier says the adapter should be no more than 3 to 4 times the headphone impedance I guess... And someone else on headfi told me no more than twice the phone impedance... Any other advice?

How about 2 50 ohm adapters? Then you get try 50 ohms and 100 ohms. I wouldn't bother to do more than that because if there are going to be any major changes you would hear them by that point.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vvanrij /img/forum/go_quote.gif my discovery was that I like my NAD's headphone out better than my MKIVse.... I so hope that I'm wrong

I'm confused. What do you mean exactly?