[Navyblue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by musiclover45 /img/forum/go_quote.gif To me, it just makes sense to have a dedicated headphone amp. With the MKV, you have two selectable inputs, so you could listen to another source without turning on your main system. Having that flexibility is very nice indeed.

Most receivers are going to have more than just 2 inputs.

But what does it have to do with "listen to another source without turning on your main system"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by musiclover45 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The MKV is going to sound better than a standard headphone jack setup. It has much more power and was built to be quiet and very dynamic.

What is a "standard headphone jack setup" anyway? Any decent speaker amp is going to have a lot more power than a headphone amp, so much so that resistors are needed to prevent the headphone getting fried.

As for quietness and dynamic, some are better, some are worse. The same applied for dedicated headphone amp. Apparently you are not reading the relevant threads enough, the myth and assumption that you mentioned has actually been discussed in those threads.

If you read earlier postings in this thread, you'd find someone actually sold off his MkV and settled with an integrated amp.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by musiclover45 /img/forum/go_quote.gif hello, To me, it just makes sense to have a dedicated headphone amp. With the MKV, you have two selectable inputs, so you could listen to another source without turning on your main system. Having that flexibility is very nice indeed. The MKV is going to sound better than a standard headphone jack setup. It has much more power and was built to be quiet and very dynamic. Do you think your source is lacking? I have no idea. thanks !!

I haven't heard the MkV, but judging from it's design, and comments here on the board, I suspect it is a great little amp that punches way above its weight. Whether or not it is demonstrably superior to the right receiver or integrated amp with the right phones is another question altogether. I just spent a week with a Glow Audio Amp One, a little tube amp that has gotten fabulous reviews, both professional and user, on the web that delivers 500 milliwatts from its headphone jack, tapped directly off of the output transformer. It sounded great. But after a week of listening to it exclusively, I plugged back into my 35 year old Harman Kardon integrated amplifier and found the differences to be small and subjective. The old HK edged out the Glow in the bass department. The Glow had better midrange texture and color. By all other listening criteria, they were pretty equal, and the distance between them was small enough to not really matter much without a direct side-by-side comparison.

I think there is a lot of erroneous conventional wisdom going around, and basing purchase decisions on it is a bit dangerous.

Tim

 

[ironmine]

Hello guys! I have a NAD C320BEE amplifier, it has the headphone output with impedance 220 Ohm. I want to buy Denon AH-D2000 (25 Ohm). The difference between these two figures (220 and 25) scares me. Will it sound good? Do I have to look for other phones?
Thanks!

 

[pp312]

Low impedance phones may be affected by the amps output impedance, but whether you will hear the effect is another matter. Or you may even prefer it. There's no such thing as total neutrality anymore than perfection. You could buy a phone that seems to match the amp's output impedance and find it sounds lousy for other reasons. Unless you're able to audition it's all a lucky dip.

I could tell you to take your amp along to your Denon dealer, but you probably want to buy online. Answer? Buy the phone and try it. If it sounds lousy, try an impedance adaptor. If it still sounds lousy buy a Cute Beyond and be happy. I am.

 

[ironmine]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Low impedance phones may be affected by the amps output impedance, but whether you will hear the effect is another matter. Or you may even prefer it. There's no such thing as total neutrality anymore than perfection. You could buy a phone that seems to match the amp's output impedance and find it sounds lousy for other reasons. Unless you're able to audition it's all a lucky dip.

Thanks for your response. I read that the impedance of the phones must be higher than the impedance of the headphone output. Woe is me! After so many weeks of reading this forum, I've finally chosen the phones which I want to buy for Heavy Metal Music (Denon D2000), and now I understand that they are not suitable for my amplifier!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I could tell you to take your amp along to your Denon dealer, but you probably want to buy online. Answer? Buy the phone and try it. If it sounds lousy, try an impedance adaptor.

I have to buy online without auditioning. I live in the place which you probably never heard of

There are no Denon dealers around, to say the least.

 

[rds]

I think it's worth mentioning that at this point there are only the 'true believers' left in this discussion of speaker amp vs headphone amp.
I have gone over the relevant threads to this topic and haven't seen any persuasive arguments that speaker amps are in the same class as headphone amps for driving headphones. Don't get me wrong I have read the arguments, but in my opinion they are patently wrong. Many people pointed this out and gave reasons why headphone amps are in another class when it comes to driving headphones. However, it seems they were shouted down with the often repeated, now de facto truth, that the myth that an amp designed with headphones specifically in mind (all else being equal) is superior has been debunked.
This is something to keep in mind. I'm not trying to repeat what has already been said many times. I just hope to provide a little perspective.

 

[greggf]

*geez..............*

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it's worth mentioning that at this point there are only the 'true believers' left in this discussion of speaker amp vs headphone amp.

Wrong. No one here is totally committed to either point of view that I can see; we're merely questioning previously unquestioned "wisdom". I've been one of the main instigators of that questioning for years. When I first discovered this site, I imagined that the discussion on HP amps would centre around the best speaker amps for headphones, as at that stage I had no idea dedicateds even existed. At first I was fascinated to hear about them, even if I didn't expect to ever buy one. Then I became puzzled. Surely someone--anyone--was using a speaker amp to drive their phones? No, apparently not. A mantra seemed to have insinuated itself into the Forum: "Buy not a good phone unless thou also intendeth to buy a dedicated amp." No mention of speaker amps ever. Funny, I thought, there are hundred of speaker amps; they can't all be lousy. I began to question this and was instantly beaten up for my temerity. How dare I question the word of those who know better. So I shut up for a time, until I began to see various posts here and elsewhere along the lines: "I just heard my mate's NAD amp and it sounds as good as my Super Jollita XV6 that I just paid 600 smackers for. Wish I'd bought a NAD now." This interested me because I was myself getting excellent results from an integrated amp; plus no one had yet provided me a plausible reason why a speaker amp couldn't drive phones well. Frankly, they still haven't, and this is years later. Currently I'm using both a Marantz PM6010 OSE integrated and a Cute Beyond with Supplier. I can hear no appreciably difference between them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have gone over the relevant threads to this topic and haven't seen any persuasive arguments that speaker amps are in the same class as headphone amps for driving headphones. Don't get me wrong I have read the arguments, but in my opinion they are patently wrong. Many people pointed this out and gave reasons why headphone amps are in another class when it comes to driving headphones. However, it seems they were shouted down with the often repeated, now de facto truth, that the myth that an amp designed with headphones specifically in mind (all else being equal) is superior has been debunked. This is something to keep in mind. I'm not trying to repeat what has already been said many times. I just hope to provide a little perspective.

There are numerous challengable statements here. Firstly, I don't believe you've gone over the relevant threads; I think you already had your mind made up. Secondly, there are no "arguments" to be advanced in favour of integrateds over dedicateds; we're simply advocating that listeners listen and give their intregrateds a chance. So what "arguments" you've read that are "patently wrong" I can't imagine. As for many people pointing this out, a couple of people interjected, one very rudely, with the old mantra, but I don't recall anyone giving reasons why dedicateds HAD to be superior to integrateds (nor can I imagine in the black art of audio that such reasons could be given). And I certainly don't recall anyone being "shouted down"; that's ridiculous. As I said, no one here is that committed to any point of view. I use both dedicateds and integrateds. I recently tried the Little Dot MkV and was unimpressed; it clearly didn't suit my Senn 650s or my tastes; the Marantz and Cute Beyond sound superior to me. But the best sounding HP amp I ever owned, which I'm sorry I sold, was a Marantz PM8100SA. See my point? The truth is, there are undoubtedly dozens of great sounding integrateds and receivers out there that, thanks to what I can only call brainwashing, their owners are not even bothering to try; and newbies are being urged to invest hundreds in dedicateds when it's quite possible the integrated they own will more than satisfy them. And while there may be some theoretical reason why their intregrated can't possibly sound as good as a dedicated, the simple fact is many, many do--and that's audio for you. What I and a few others are advocating is further postings about good sounding integrateds to broaden the discussion base and less certainty in the advice that good sound canot be had without a dedicated. There are no "true believers" here.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have gone over the relevant threads to this topic and haven't seen any persuasive arguments that speaker amps are in the same class as headphone amps for driving headphones.

Here's a persuasive argument for you... my amp sounds really good to me.

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's a persuasive argument for you... my amp sounds really good to me.

And that's basically all the truth and proof you are ever going to get on this forum.

There was one (and just one) valid technical (and thus objective) argument given for the superiority of a dedicated headphone amp versus speaker amps. That argument was that speaker amps using resistors off the main amp circuit tend to have high impedances at the headphone jack, whereas dedicated amps tend to have much lower impedances at the jack. If we are talking about an opamp circuit, it's typically < 1 ohm.

This leads to two possible issues. One is the damping factor. This is a valid issue, but was oversimplified in it's presentation by the people who brought it up. Look up information on it and you will see there are still plenty of questions about how it works in the real world. It is also a greater issue with low impedance headphones than high impedance ones.

The second issue is a that the high impedance at the jack can change the frequency response of the sound. There are articles about this, and at least one person talked about having a personal experience with this. Again, it's more of an issue with low impedance headphones than high impedance ones. More so than the damping factor, this may be a major issue.

All things being theoretical, a dedicated is better than a integrated speaker amp. There. I said it. But this is an audiophile site. What matters at the end of the day is your ears. If the bass frequency is adjusted by the high output impedance, it's not automatically bad. You could argue about the "purity" of the sound, but these are headphones and personal preferences we are talking about. There is no gold standard for transducers in the audiophile world. All headphones are distorting the original frequency in some way.

There is also , after all, a great deal of variability with dedicated amps as well. If there wasn't would there be so much talk about amp and headphone matching on this forum?

I've found that with high impedance headphones speaker amp headphone jacks do just fine. With low impedance headphones (Grado RS2, GS1000), Denon (D2000, D5000) and Audio Technica AD900 there is more variability. I recently had an experience where I tried a RS2 and GS1000 into an integrated Rotel and didn't like it so much. The Denon into and AT into an older integrated Sherwood was very enjoyable and musical and reproduced an exquisite amount of detail. My time with a Grado into a tube speaker amp was also incredible - one of the best listening experiences I've ever had.

As said before - try it. See what works best for you. If you prefer the dedicated, go for it. Just don't ignore a speaker amp just because a bunch of people here say you have to be deaf to prefer it.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think it's worth mentioning that at this point there are only the 'true believers' left in this discussion of speaker amp vs headphone amp. I have gone over the relevant threads to this topic and haven't seen any persuasive arguments that speaker amps are in the same class as headphone amps for driving headphones. Don't get me wrong I have read the arguments, but in my opinion they are patently wrong. Many people pointed this out and gave reasons why headphone amps are in another class when it comes to driving headphones. However, it seems they were shouted down with the often repeated, now de facto truth, that the myth that an amp designed with headphones specifically in mind (all else being equal) is superior has been debunked. This is something to keep in mind. I'm not trying to repeat what has already been said many times. I just hope to provide a little perspective.

I think you have a couple of things very wrong. One - no one here, that I'm aware of, is trying to say that speaker amps are better than dedicated HP amps. They are only saying that some speaker amps sound as good as some HP amps, to their ears, in their experience. The superiority of speaker amps has never been the subject here and we are, rather, discussing which speaker amps sound good to us. It's not really something you can dispute. It's like telling me no, I can't like red, blue is superior. Every shade, regardless of what I see.

The only true believers I've noticed here are the people who seem to believe that all dedicated HP amps, by definition, are better than all speaker amps; people who are, for some reason, compelled to keep coming back to this thread to say so to a group of people who are having a completely different conversation.

That is a true believer. A fanatic, even. And a closed mind.

Tim

 

[scompton]

There have been quite a few posts of speaker amps that don't sound good with headphones. One good example is my NAD 3155 with low impedance cans. I wouldn't recommend it at all for that. For high impedance cans, which almost all of mine are, it's fine.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif The only true believers I've noticed here are the people who seem to believe that all dedicated HP amps, by definition, are better than all speaker amps; people who are, for some reason, compelled to keep coming back to this thread to say so to a group of people who are having a completely different conversation. That is a true believer. A fanatic, even. And a closed mind. Tim

Just about says it all, Tim. But who are these people and why are they so compelled, even breaking into threads and insulting perfectly innocent posters who haven't yet made up their minds on the issue. Why are they so threatened by threads about what might be a good sounding integrated? Have we somehow unwittingly insulted their mothers, or what?

 

[rds]

Quote:

The only true believers I've noticed here are the people who seem to believe that all dedicated HP amps, by definition, are better than all speaker amps; people who are, for some reason, compelled to keep coming back to this thread to say so to a group of people who are having a completely different conversation. That is a true believer. A fanatic, even. And a closed mind.

OK, I get it. This is effectively telling me to go ****** myself. This is actually the reason I wrote my post. Simply I think it is bad for the discussion to try to exclude all those but the converted. And, yes, that is what you're doing in a passive aggressive form of ad hominem attack.

Quote:

It's not really something you can dispute. It's like telling me no, I can't like red, blue is superior. Every shade, regardless of what I see.

I'm not trying to tell you what you can like. Read my post and you will see that. My point is about design, which is open to rationale argument.

 

[pp312]

The fact is, you're fighting a straw man here: the idea that we all believe that integrateds are "better" than dedicateds. No one is saying that: we're simply pleading for the whole subject of HP amps to be broadened to include integrateds/receivers where there's evidence they perform well. Why are you so threatened by that? No one here is plotting the imminent demise of the dedicated headphone market; nothing will change because of this or similar threads. Please try to understand where we're coming from.