The W4 is a Luxury & Precision dongle costing 450 euros, it is considered (not by me who owns it) one of the best dongles. For me there are two dongles that rise above all the others (RU7 and M15) and perhaps, in a few days I will receive one that could form the perfect triad with the other two that I mentioned and that is the ifi GO bar. For the rest, the DC Elite will almost certainly be a stellar dongle... just think that the only volume management is entrusted to an R2R and as a dac it uses one from ROHM. The expected price should be around 378 euros (we hope).
USB-C to 3.5mm adapters (DAC) - Let's find the best
rlw6534
Headphoneus Supremus
Both are knocking on the door of a Mojo 2 price wise, not that I could hear the difference...
How do you know the 378 euros ?
The hypothesized price was 60,000 yen... Google: yen - euro = 378 euro
I know many people whose Mojo2 is gathering dust and who use the M15 and RU7 on a daily basis... and honestly I'm not at all surprised... very often the synergy with the iem/headphones is the most important thing.Both are knocking on the door of a Mojo 2 price wise, not that I could hear the difference...
Can you compare the M15 and the Dc04 pro ?
Jerwardemy
New Head-Fier
I'm looking for comparisons like this as well. I'm wanting to upgrade from my Moondrop Dawn Pro. The Ru7 and M15 were suggested to me...but they may have to wait until later due to price. Currently looking at the iBasso DC04 Pro and Fiio KA5, and maybe the Moondrop Moonriver 2 Ti.
I'm wondering if these DACs with separate amp chips will have better sound quality compared to the DACs that use the internal DAC chip's amp. I'd imagine going from an on board Class H amp to separate Class A/B amp chips should increase sound quality and not just power.
I'm wondering if these DACs with separate amp chips will have better sound quality compared to the DACs that use the internal DAC chip's amp. I'd imagine going from an on board Class H amp to separate Class A/B amp chips should increase sound quality and not just power.
Interesting comment as I was just about to share my impressions between Mojo2 and M15.
I have had Mojo2 for over a year now and I love it, probably my favourite piece of source gear.
Recently got the M15 as an upgrade for the Violectric Chronos I was using as my super-portable solution.
I much prefer the Mojo2 sound quality wise, feels much more balanced and tonally rich than the M15, and has better sound staging in my view.
M15 by comparison comes across a bit hot in the treble and overall less relaxed.
In particular, Mojo2 plays better as a DAC into an external amp, which is an important use case for me as I've decided to move on from desktop-only DACs.
All this without mentioning the EQ... and of course Mojo2 is 2x the price.
Granted I have only had about a week with the M15, and it is certainly an upgrade to the Chronos to my ears (which is what I was after). I do like it and will be keeping it for the foreseeable.
But, so far, it won't be replacing Mojo2 for me.
brjoon1021
100+ Head-Fier
For those who asked about the DC04 Pro. I am new here, but here is my take. I have been using it in my home system along with: Cayin RU6, Hiby FC6, Cayin RU7, Centrance DACPort HD, Ovidius B1, Mojo 2 and my Wiim Pro Plus running off of a battery, analog out. It is a great option as are the rest of these. I think it is the cheapest or tied for the least expensive but It suffers in no way soundwise by comparison and it is feature rich compared to the rest except the mojo 2 which is also feature rich.
I love the digital filters. It scares me when a reviewer who speaks like a goldenear about really subtle nth degree differences between something he used to own and compares it to whatever in this youtube video but says, "I can't really hear much difference between the filters". There is a pretty noticeable difference between digital filters in every way. They effect the soundstage for sure, treble (big time) and all else actually, as well. I mention this because you have access to 5 or 6 (I forget) with the ibasso dongle - and that right from your phone using their app ! ZANG. That is excellent and quite a perk to go along with the overall good sound from the dongle. I would not hesitate to buy it again due to its sound:
It is not harsh or too bright but has good detail, is full not lean, but does not have a euphonic effect to my ears. (Some would say R2R like FC6 and Ru6 are euphonic, but they sound the most like records, so is that euphony ?) Everything is just there, not overemphasized and in the right amounts. The soundstage and people and instruments within (remember I am using all of these in a home stereo, like next to my record player... room treatment, good gear and speakers) so soundstage might mean a little different or a lot different of a thing to me than you guys using different types of earphones. In my system, It has good depth, good spacing and layering, but is not etched. The soundstage "people" are in a tighter focus (each one) and smaller than they are in the RU6 or FC6, and especially my records which is a whole different thing. (The singer in the middle of the speakers is the size of a hula hoop on a record, the size of a basketball with R2R and the size of a softball with DS, seems to be the way it is and I really don't know the technical reasons why). A manufacturer, I think Cayin, said, " R2R is an oil painting and Delta Sigma is a digital photo". I suppose a record is a Van Gogh then. The DC04 walks a litle of a middle ground to me between some of the sharper DS and the R2R: it is not extremely analytical and the voice is not the size of a peanut like some other delta-sigma DACs where they have lots of transient and attack detail but seem to have the parts of the image in little vacuum sealed spaces, for lack of a better description. The opposite of this is why I like records, usually, so much - there is just something cohesive about it where you EXPECT a sound to come from the area around your speakers and you are not surprised by it when it happens. I LOVE records through vacuum tubes so I may have different tastes than you do.
So, to reiterate, the DC04 is closer to the R2R than some DS are. Maybe this is due, in part to the Cirrus Logic chips which are the heart of it. CL bought Wolfson and Wolfson had a reputation of making analog sound DAC chips.
In short, It is solid. I bought it because Andy (Andys audio vault on youtube" said it was top tier and every other one he said that about I have bought on his advice. He has been right on all of them. Now I have to figure out if I am going to keep the Mojo 2. It is great, but I could buy 3-4 dongles for its price. Hmmmm
I love the digital filters. It scares me when a reviewer who speaks like a goldenear about really subtle nth degree differences between something he used to own and compares it to whatever in this youtube video but says, "I can't really hear much difference between the filters". There is a pretty noticeable difference between digital filters in every way. They effect the soundstage for sure, treble (big time) and all else actually, as well. I mention this because you have access to 5 or 6 (I forget) with the ibasso dongle - and that right from your phone using their app ! ZANG. That is excellent and quite a perk to go along with the overall good sound from the dongle. I would not hesitate to buy it again due to its sound:
It is not harsh or too bright but has good detail, is full not lean, but does not have a euphonic effect to my ears. (Some would say R2R like FC6 and Ru6 are euphonic, but they sound the most like records, so is that euphony ?) Everything is just there, not overemphasized and in the right amounts. The soundstage and people and instruments within (remember I am using all of these in a home stereo, like next to my record player... room treatment, good gear and speakers) so soundstage might mean a little different or a lot different of a thing to me than you guys using different types of earphones. In my system, It has good depth, good spacing and layering, but is not etched. The soundstage "people" are in a tighter focus (each one) and smaller than they are in the RU6 or FC6, and especially my records which is a whole different thing. (The singer in the middle of the speakers is the size of a hula hoop on a record, the size of a basketball with R2R and the size of a softball with DS, seems to be the way it is and I really don't know the technical reasons why). A manufacturer, I think Cayin, said, " R2R is an oil painting and Delta Sigma is a digital photo". I suppose a record is a Van Gogh then. The DC04 walks a litle of a middle ground to me between some of the sharper DS and the R2R: it is not extremely analytical and the voice is not the size of a peanut like some other delta-sigma DACs where they have lots of transient and attack detail but seem to have the parts of the image in little vacuum sealed spaces, for lack of a better description. The opposite of this is why I like records, usually, so much - there is just something cohesive about it where you EXPECT a sound to come from the area around your speakers and you are not surprised by it when it happens. I LOVE records through vacuum tubes so I may have different tastes than you do.
So, to reiterate, the DC04 is closer to the R2R than some DS are. Maybe this is due, in part to the Cirrus Logic chips which are the heart of it. CL bought Wolfson and Wolfson had a reputation of making analog sound DAC chips.
In short, It is solid. I bought it because Andy (Andys audio vault on youtube" said it was top tier and every other one he said that about I have bought on his advice. He has been right on all of them. Now I have to figure out if I am going to keep the Mojo 2. It is great, but I could buy 3-4 dongles for its price. Hmmmm
brjoon1021
100+ Head-Fier
Any of you use the M15 and the M12 a lot and can comment on them with just their 3.5mm out ? The 3.5 is what I use for home as my pre-amp is not balanced.. I am interested in the amp section of these two.
I really am impressed by the amp technologies these companies can fit into these dongles. The ovidius is a class D, the Centrance is Class A, the questyle has a current or voltage amplification design that is different than most, etc... impressive stuff. Actual transistors in that new white Aune.. Something which sounds like the Questyle approach in the forthcoming iBasso DC-elite. Stoked that there are so many options. Amp section and the different chipsets, not to mention how the companies utilize both gives us so many flavors to choose from to get a good synergy.
I really am impressed by the amp technologies these companies can fit into these dongles. The ovidius is a class D, the Centrance is Class A, the questyle has a current or voltage amplification design that is different than most, etc... impressive stuff. Actual transistors in that new white Aune.. Something which sounds like the Questyle approach in the forthcoming iBasso DC-elite. Stoked that there are so many options. Amp section and the different chipsets, not to mention how the companies utilize both gives us so many flavors to choose from to get a good synergy.
Can you describe the pretty noticeable difference between the digital filters ?
brjoon1021
100+ Head-Fier
Digital filter differences.
You probably are not asking for this, but it is a good read.
https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/blogs/how-to/how-to-pick-the-best-filter-setting-for-your-dac
I just wish that he had dealt with whether 96K or 192K sampling rates might effect the use or even need for a filter. The author is probably an Audio Science Review kind of guy-measurements are all that matters, in other words, as he seems to be tied to which filter gives the best amplitude response whereas some people say we should be looking at phase response (Rob Watts with his Chord FPGA, for example).
The author says the fast filter is the best. I use it when listening to 16/44 or 16/48 as it would have the most effect on cutting the nasty bits that can manifest in the audible range when these sampling rates are used. It seems to allow a lot of the highs through, but even though we should not be able to hear that high ? It seems to maybe remove a little air. I tried the slow filter with these bitrates and it cuts out highs a little sooner than the fast does. When you change the decay of treble instruments and anything with high frequency harmonics they sound like the instrument comes from a little further back to me. the "NOS" or no oversampling filter brings the soundstage a little more up front to me cymbals are closer and brighter. The other two filters are an amalgam of fast and slow with certain emphases. I have used both and have not decided what I think. I hope someone really smart can answer these questions for us. The different filters seem to have in goal preserving the transient without altering it in the frequency domain, but as I mentioned above DAC designers are not at all monolithic in their opinions about frequency response being the critical thing. The advocates of NOS, especially in multibit / R2R DACs say NOS is the only way to get the phase relationships intact and to preserve the image and realness. I have tried NOS with the RU6 and I like it more with Hi-res than I do with the 44 or 48 bitrate streams, which makes sense if the need for a filter arose back in the CD days when there was ONLY 16/44. By the way, the filters seem to be tweaked by each chip designer and can have different names when they are the same or close. The DC04 is Cirrus Logic's filter set with their naming. My Wiim has an AK chipset and some of the filters are different. They are really deep so I only looked at them a little bit, but AK, Cirrus, probably Sabre, etc... have white papers for their digital filters in plain view on their websites. I wish I knew more about the salient information to get out of those graphs. I have asked some of the techie youtubers like Wave Theory to do a video on the filters especially relating to whether they are good in general/ good for hi-res (I seem to like a really slow or NOS for hi-res), etc... I hope one of them will. NOS in a delta sigma chipset puzzles me, but there are two different kinds of oversampling going on in a DS shipset, one of them ALWAYS happens and that is not what is being refered to and the other one, apparently, can be left non-oversampled, I think. I read about this and it was not super clear to me.
I am sure this was not that much help. Sorry.
You probably are not asking for this, but it is a good read.
https://addictedtoaudio.com.au/blogs/how-to/how-to-pick-the-best-filter-setting-for-your-dac
I just wish that he had dealt with whether 96K or 192K sampling rates might effect the use or even need for a filter. The author is probably an Audio Science Review kind of guy-measurements are all that matters, in other words, as he seems to be tied to which filter gives the best amplitude response whereas some people say we should be looking at phase response (Rob Watts with his Chord FPGA, for example).
The author says the fast filter is the best. I use it when listening to 16/44 or 16/48 as it would have the most effect on cutting the nasty bits that can manifest in the audible range when these sampling rates are used. It seems to allow a lot of the highs through, but even though we should not be able to hear that high ? It seems to maybe remove a little air. I tried the slow filter with these bitrates and it cuts out highs a little sooner than the fast does. When you change the decay of treble instruments and anything with high frequency harmonics they sound like the instrument comes from a little further back to me. the "NOS" or no oversampling filter brings the soundstage a little more up front to me cymbals are closer and brighter. The other two filters are an amalgam of fast and slow with certain emphases. I have used both and have not decided what I think. I hope someone really smart can answer these questions for us. The different filters seem to have in goal preserving the transient without altering it in the frequency domain, but as I mentioned above DAC designers are not at all monolithic in their opinions about frequency response being the critical thing. The advocates of NOS, especially in multibit / R2R DACs say NOS is the only way to get the phase relationships intact and to preserve the image and realness. I have tried NOS with the RU6 and I like it more with Hi-res than I do with the 44 or 48 bitrate streams, which makes sense if the need for a filter arose back in the CD days when there was ONLY 16/44. By the way, the filters seem to be tweaked by each chip designer and can have different names when they are the same or close. The DC04 is Cirrus Logic's filter set with their naming. My Wiim has an AK chipset and some of the filters are different. They are really deep so I only looked at them a little bit, but AK, Cirrus, probably Sabre, etc... have white papers for their digital filters in plain view on their websites. I wish I knew more about the salient information to get out of those graphs. I have asked some of the techie youtubers like Wave Theory to do a video on the filters especially relating to whether they are good in general/ good for hi-res (I seem to like a really slow or NOS for hi-res), etc... I hope one of them will. NOS in a delta sigma chipset puzzles me, but there are two different kinds of oversampling going on in a DS shipset, one of them ALWAYS happens and that is not what is being refered to and the other one, apparently, can be left non-oversampled, I think. I read about this and it was not super clear to me.
I am sure this was not that much help. Sorry.
brjoon1021
100+ Head-Fier
P.S. I meant that digital filters in general made noticeable differences and the DC04 Pro would be a good testbed for that. I have played with all of the filters ad nauseum with my Wiim Pro Plus too. i even think the bass is different with different filters. I am not sure if that is supposed to be so if it is the subjective result of taking a little shimmer off of the highs which changes the subjective balance between highs and lows making the bass sound a little fuller ? I recall listening to a track with NOS on with the RU6 and the symbals sounded almost like they were being hit with sand rather than a stick so I turned on the filter which ameliorated that sound. I have like that DAC NOS on other tracks and especialy hi-res.
Yes it was pure bs
I’ve owned both M12 and M15 at the same time (a few times actually!). I mainly use 3.5mm out and posted some impressions here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/int...ew-questyle-shop.962999/page-14#post-17007677
M15 gets a lot of love but I feel the M12 is great too, in some ways a different flavor rather than a step up or down.
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