[nc8000]

Hi everyone,
I was looking for more info on ibasso dc03 and I found this crosstalk chart and it is very different from ibasso dc04 crosstalk chart. What does it mean?

Crosstalk is sound that leaks between right and left channel. As one of the purposes of balanced is to eliminate the common ground which should all but eliminate crosstalk I assume that is what the chrts show (crosstalk at different loads) and I assume that highr dB numbers mean less crosstalk which makes sense as 04 is balanced and 03 is single ended

 

[sistoz]

Crosstalk is sound that leaks between right and left channel. As one of the purposes of balanced is to eliminate the common ground which should all but eliminate crosstalk I assume that is what the chrts show (crosstalk at different loads) and I assume that highr dB numbers mean less crosstalk which makes sense as 04 is balanced and 03 is single ended

Thanks for the clear explanation. Could a low crosstalk value like that of dc03 ruin the stereo image? The E1DA 9038D is single ended but has a crosstalk value greater than 100, does this mean that the dc03 has some internal circuitry problem?

 

[nc8000]

Thanks for the clear explanation. Could a low crosstalk value like that of dc03 ruin the stereo image? The E1DA 9038D is single ended but has a crosstalk value greater than 100, does this mean that the dc03 has some internal circuitry problem?

No idea. I’ve never actually seen measurements for crosstalk so I have no idea what is good or bad or audible or even if my interpretation of the charts is correct

 

[sistoz]

No idea. I’ve never actually seen measurements for crosstalk so I have no idea what is good or bad or audible or even if my interpretation of the charts is correct

Thanks for your help. I will try to understand better what crosstalk is.

 

[nc8000]

Thanks for your help. I will try to understand better what crosstalk is.

Crosstalk is bleeding of sound from one channel to the other channel and can be both good and bad. Some amps actually have a crosstalk circuit to let the listener controll the amount of crosstalk. When listening to live og speaker sound both ears get sound from all sides and this generates spacial information and contributes to the impression of soundstage. With headphones this normally dont happen so each ear only get the sound from one side and this is what a crosstalk circuit try to address. On the other hand on single ended headphones both channels share the ground signal so this can generate undesired crosstalk which can muddy the sound. This is what balanced addresses by eliminating the common ground which usually gives a cleaner and less muddy and better controlled sound

 

[sistoz]

Crosstalk is bleeding of sound from one channel to the other channel and can be both good and bad. Some amps actually have a crosstalk circuit to let the listener controll the amount of crosstalk. When listening to live og speaker sound both ears get sound from all sides and this generates spacial information and contributes to the impression of soundstage. With headphones this normally dont happen so each ear only get the sound from one side and this is what a crosstalk circuit try to address. On the other hand on single ended headphones both channels share the ground signal so this can generate undesired crosstalk which can muddy the sound. This is what balanced addresses by eliminating the common ground which usually gives a cleaner and less muddy and better controlled sound

Thanks for the explanation. The crosstalk chart of the E1DA was of the balanced version of the DAC. I think the single ended version has much lower crosstalk values. Probably the crosstalk values of the dc03 are normal for the single ended.

 

[renekok]

Crosstalk is sound that leaks between right and left channel. As one of the purposes of balanced is to eliminate the common ground which should all but eliminate crosstalk I assume that is what the chrts show (crosstalk at different loads) and I assume that highr dB numbers mean less crosstalk which makes sense as 04 is balanced and 03 is single ended

As you can see the dB number has a minus in front. So a higher number indeed means lower crosstalk. I am surprised that there is crosstalk at all for a balanced setup, might be due to capacitive or inductive influences.

 

[renekok]

Crosstalk is bleeding of sound from one channel to the other channel and can be both good and bad. Some amps actually have a crosstalk circuit to let the listener controll the amount of crosstalk. When listening to live og speaker sound both ears get sound from all sides and this generates spacial information and contributes to the impression of soundstage. With headphones this normally dont happen so each ear only get the sound from one side and this is what a crosstalk circuit try to address. On the other hand on single ended headphones both channels share the ground signal so this can generate undesired crosstalk which can muddy the sound. This is what balanced addresses by eliminating the common ground which usually gives a cleaner and less muddy and better controlled sound

Compare it with binaural recordings, where the microphones are set up in such a way that they record the sounds as you would hear them as if you were at the concert/performance.
Very different from stereophonic recordings, were the sound is artificially assigned to the left or right channel (which can be done when you record each instrument or voice separately).

 

[renekok]

Crosstalk is bleeding of sound from one channel to the other channel and can be both good and bad. Some amps actually have a crosstalk circuit to let the listener controll the amount of crosstalk. When listening to live og speaker sound both ears get sound from all sides and this generates spacial information and contributes to the impression of soundstage. With headphones this normally dont happen so each ear only get the sound from one side and this is what a crosstalk circuit try to address. On the other hand on single ended headphones both channels share the ground signal so this can generate undesired crosstalk which can muddy the sound. This is what balanced addresses by eliminating the common ground which usually gives a cleaner and less muddy and better controlled sound

Compare it with binaural recordings, where the microphones are set up in such a way that they record the sounds as you would hear them as if you were at the concert/performance.
Very different from stereophonic recordings, were the sound is artificially assigned to the left or right channel (which can be done when you record each instrument or voice separately).

 

[nc8000]

Compare it with binaural recordings, where the microphones are set up in such a way that they record the sounds as you would hear them as if you were at the concert/performance.
Very different from stereophonic recordings, were the sound is artificially assigned to the left or right channel (which can be done when you record each instrument or voice separately).

Indeed. I have several recordings that have been recorded and released both in "standard" and binaural and the difference is clear

 

[Star Mastering]

I wish the mastering engineers would evaluate devices more thoroughly for Sony in these videos. It was vague in this one.

Without using the S-Master amp and dac from their walkmans to give their Xperia an edge there wouldn't be a dramatic increase in fan interest. LG has left and that reduces the likelihood anything will happen in the short term.

'audio tuned in collaboration with Sony Music Entertainment.'

Significant audio tuning has reduced crosstalk to an imperceptible 20dB - over 90% lower than USB-C headphone connections.

In addition to High-Resolution and High-Resolution Wireless Audio, Xperia 1 II introduces DSEE Ultimate.

Source: https://presscentre.sony.eu/pressre...-ae-tracking-burst-and-5g-dot-dot-dot-2975092

Can someone guess what the 20dB means here? is it a minus value?

Ivan (IVX) explains that:
Meizu HiFi DAC and Meizu HiFi DAC Pro are rated -55dB (-55.577/-55.561dB) at 32 ohms (1kHz and 10kHz): Meizu 5 cm cable makes crosstalk -50db, imagine what happens after 3m of your cables...
BTW, if 9038D has -82db@32ohm, hence, at 600ohm it will be -108db, because it is R/R phenomenon up to -135db (unloaded infinite resistance). Actually, the way to get a lot better crosstalk with 3.5mm jack does exist. Need to use TRRS 3.5mm jack and balanced 4-wire cable, however, the compatibility with 3-wire unbalanced cable will be funky, in the case if 3.5mm plug will be TRRS also but as a GND used only S from trrS, the crosstalk could be even worse. But as I already said, even -50db@1kHz crosstalk is fine for precise stereo-image.

So when choosing devices, we have to pay attention to the crosstalk on the lowest resistance headphones.

DC03 has 92 dB at no load, 70 db at 300 ohm, around 50 or lower at 32 ohm. This is perhaps equal to Meizu but without its cable. So perhaps cables have no bearing on these values.

If 20dB is compared to these dongles, you could say it is way worse but I just don't see how it could be that they brag it is 90% better. In the Japanese marketing materials, they explain that it is reduced to 1/10th of Xperia 1's analog USB-C dongle crosstalk. Sony's official pages detailing the passion they put into Xperia show graphs without units so the 20 dB remains a mystery.

How much would Xperia 1's analog USB-C dongle crosstalk have been? 2dB? 200dB?

They are using terminology carelessly and their meaning was further distorted when translated to English by Sony EU or others.

As a result of various research on the net, there is a lot of information that the Xperia 1ii and 5ii are loaded with Qualcomm's high-quality sound chip called WCD9341. I haven't disassembled it and confirmed it, but as far as I can hear the sound, I think this information is correct. (I don't know if it's really installed or not.) The homepage says that the mixture of left and right sounds has been reduced to 1/10 of the previous Xperia ratio, but it is true. Crosstalk has been dramatically improved compared to the models before 1ii, and I felt it was completely different. The WCD9341 is also equipped with an amplifier function, has an output of 34mw with 16Ω, and has specifications that surpass even the Walkman A50's S Master HX in terms of dynamic range and total harmonic distortion. It also has an analytical upscaling function called dsee ultimate, which is also installed in the Xperia 1ii. There are many opinions on the net that it is equivalent to A50. There used to be rumors that the Xperia XZP might have a WCD9341, but in the end it was a lower chip called the WCD9335. The existence of Walkman's A series etc. will not be required thanks to this phone.

But it is obvious that one would prefer to pick and choose dongles instead.

For reference, Apple's lightning adapter/5s has around the same values as dc03 for normal loads but it can't go higher as the resistance goes higher. But I still don't get what 20dB could be referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosstalk
An IBA weighted graph is shown, and it makes you think that 50 dB is already too good.

To add further confusion to me, https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/206709234 shows Sonata HD Pro to have very good channel separation which doesn't quite correlate with other measurements found above.

It appears that crosstalk is not all that important even for headphones, and brings into question the entire basis of speakers and headphones and what exactly is the proper way to capture, store and play back sound.

 

[renekok]

I wish the mastering engineers would evaluate devices more thoroughly for Sony in these videos. It was vague in this one.

Without using the S-Master amp and dac from their walkmans to give their Xperia an edge there wouldn't be a dramatic increase in fan interest. LG has left and that reduces the likelihood anything will happen in the short term.

'audio tuned in collaboration with Sony Music Entertainment.'

Significant audio tuning has reduced crosstalk to an imperceptible 20dB - over 90% lower than USB-C headphone connections.

In addition to High-Resolution and High-Resolution Wireless Audio, Xperia 1 II introduces DSEE Ultimate.

Source: https://presscentre.sony.eu/pressre...-ae-tracking-burst-and-5g-dot-dot-dot-2975092

Can someone guess what the 20dB means here? is it a minus value?

Ivan (IVX) explains that:
Meizu HiFi DAC and Meizu HiFi DAC Pro are rated -55dB (-55.577/-55.561dB) at 32 ohms (1kHz and 10kHz): Meizu 5 cm cable makes crosstalk -50db, imagine what happens after 3m of your cables...
BTW, if 9038D has -82db@32ohm, hence, at 600ohm it will be -108db, because it is R/R phenomenon up to -135db (unloaded infinite resistance). Actually, the way to get a lot better crosstalk with 3.5mm jack does exist. Need to use TRRS 3.5mm jack and balanced 4-wire cable, however, the compatibility with 3-wire unbalanced cable will be funky, in the case if 3.5mm plug will be TRRS also but as a GND used only S from trrS, the crosstalk could be even worse. But as I already said, even -50db@1kHz crosstalk is fine for precise stereo-image.

So when choosing devices, we have to pay attention to the crosstalk on the lowest resistance headphones.

DC03 has 92 dB at no load, 70 db at 300 ohm, around 50 or lower at 32 ohm. This is perhaps equal to Meizu but without its cable. So perhaps cables have no bearing on these values.

If 20dB is compared to these dongles, you could say it is way worse but I just don't see how it could be that they brag it is 90% better. In the Japanese marketing materials, they explain that it is reduced to 1/10th of Xperia 1's analog USB-C dongle crosstalk. Sony's official pages detailing the passion they put into Xperia show graphs without units so the 20 dB remains a mystery.

How much would Xperia 1's analog USB-C dongle crosstalk have been? 2dB? 200dB?

They are using terminology carelessly and their meaning was further distorted when translated to English by Sony EU or others.

As a result of various research on the net, there is a lot of information that the Xperia 1ii and 5ii are loaded with Qualcomm's high-quality sound chip called WCD9341. I haven't disassembled it and confirmed it, but as far as I can hear the sound, I think this information is correct. (I don't know if it's really installed or not.) The homepage says that the mixture of left and right sounds has been reduced to 1/10 of the previous Xperia ratio, but it is true. Crosstalk has been dramatically improved compared to the models before 1ii, and I felt it was completely different. The WCD9341 is also equipped with an amplifier function, has an output of 34mw with 16Ω, and has specifications that surpass even the Walkman A50's S Master HX in terms of dynamic range and total harmonic distortion. It also has an analytical upscaling function called dsee ultimate, which is also installed in the Xperia 1ii. There are many opinions on the net that it is equivalent to A50. There used to be rumors that the Xperia XZP might have a WCD9341, but in the end it was a lower chip called the WCD9335. The existence of Walkman's A series etc. will not be required thanks to this phone.

But it is obvious that one would prefer to pick and choose dongles instead.

For reference, Apple's lightning adapter/5s has around the same values as dc03 for normal loads but it can't go higher as the resistance goes higher. But I still don't get what 20dB could be referring to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosstalk
An IBA weighted graph is shown, and it makes you think that 50 dB is already too good.

To add further confusion to me, https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/206709234 shows Sonata HD Pro to have very good channel separation which doesn't quite correlate with other measurements found above.

It appears that crosstalk is not all that important even for headphones, and brings into question the entire basis of speakers and headphones and what exactly is the proper way to capture, store and play back sound.

Good post. Just one addition. The crosstalk for single ended headphones is a function of the impedance of the cable+earpiece and the internal impedance of the amplifiers.

 

[TooPoorForHiFi]

Does anyone happen to be using a Galaxy S9+?

 

[robar]

Hello there! I'm just casually looking for a cheaper backup or similarly priced alternative for my sonata hd pro. I like it very much and I want to keep it in my PC, so I'm looking for a second dongle for portable use that I'm not so worried about, which preferably supports android + headset mic. (I'm using an SMSL X4 for this purpose at the moment, basically want to upgrade from it. I also have a Dac audio ES9018k2m which I mainly use with loudspeakers)

Any experience with Hiby FC1 vs Tempotec Sonata HD II ? Same chip, I like the Hiby's build better because of the modularity / volume control but HD II is a bit cheaper. Are these any better than a bluetooth dongle like Fiio BTR3 / Hiby W3 in usb mode by the way? Maybe someone even compared them to popular Dac audio ES9018k2m?

I've also found this, same chip as HD Pro for 20 bucks, maybe it's worth a try? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002480980584.html

About potential future upgrades, is the Hiby FC3 any better than HD Pro? Or just go for the E35 or even higher?

And this looks interesting as an ultra budget option against realtek/conexant/qualcomm etc, I'm just curious if anyone tried it? Looks like a new oem design, maybe jcally or similar budget brands will come out with slightly better variants. Lets call it cs46l41 blue light. (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002452763815.html

 

[Star Mastering]

Although this is not an answer to your very specific question, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002480980584.html is interesting, but Meizu Hifi is still cheaper. it says the USB C plug can be used 10000 times, and the 3.5 mm jack 5000 times. cs46l41 was used in Meizu Hifi as the USB bridge but I'm unsure about its performance in standalone settings.

I've bought the Tempotec Sonata HD II by mistake, through taobao, which I regret - it will arrive next month or even later. But yeah, the original Tempotec Sonata HD had low output power, which Tempotec Sonata HD II improves on by doubling it. I don't think its durability for portable uses is recommendable - it could be weaker than cheap-feel TPU cables.

Not much beats sonata hd pro or meizu hifi just yet. Obviously stay away from realtek/conexant/qualcomm rubbish, unless it's insanely cheap. It's like buying 'onboard noisy audio' as a dongle, why do it? Some of their chips are good (or were good in the past) but these dongles mostly don't implement them properly anyway. Of course, realtek/conexant(synaptics)/qualcomm dominates the PC and smartphone internal audio market. And Cirrus dominates Apple dongles and most of the dongle products at this time. AKM chips used by DC01/02 didn't really catch on and were terribly overheating, though S9 Pro seems to change that. That leaves ESS chips, which are featured in 9038S/D, S9, UA1/2 and Sonata HD II. I still succumb to the belief that the audio chip pathway and its integrated components really determine a lot of the end result sound you get. Implementation must be good of course, but the chip must bring about some differences. What is almost certain is that CS43131 products won't differ from each other too widely.

“Sonata E35 and Sonata E44 follow our Sonata HD PRO and Sonata BHD products. Starting with Sonata HD PRO, we have developed a series of products based on SA9312 master chip and CS43131 decoder chip.

Sonata HD PRO (SA9312 + single CS43131 + 3.5mm)

Sonata BHD (SA9312 + double CS43131 + 2.5mm)

Sonata E35 (SA9312 + double CS43131 + 3.5mm)

Sonata E44 (SA9312 + double CS43131 + 4.4mm)

iBasso DC03 and DC04 use SA9302 and double CS43131. "

Frankly I don't see what Sonata E35 improves on Sonata HD PRO; volume control and design?

See here https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/206709234

Unsure about accuracy but this is a quote: 'Unlike Meizu Line/Meizu Line Pro, it does not use the Cirrus Logic family bucket CS46L41 solution, because the CS46L41 interface is 32bit/384kHz. , But in fact it will turn to 24bit internally, which makes it impossible to achieve DSD256 (requires an actual data throughput equivalent to 32bit/352.8kHz). For consumer products, users may not care, but in the niche market of HiFi, this may be a big deal. (emphasis added)

FInally, note that CS43131 as used in https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002480980584.html and the Meizu dongles is made in Korea (KR) while the CS43131 used in Sonata HD PRO (different chip packaging) is made in Taiwan (TWN). You can find the teardowns in various threads but here are pics: