[MLGrado]

Thanks for getting dirty! I’d like to believe the AK DAC will be worth the extra $100. Another reviewer is reporting a significant increase in detail/clarity for the “Velvet”, but any report of any significant difference between DACs of this calibre makes me wary.

Looking forward!

yeah, I think he is hearing an increase in detail. Significant? I am not sure. Depends on how you define significant. The AKM version seems to have more 'texture' detail and a bit better transient response.

Considering it has a totally unique new chipset that is made up of two parts, with filters and modulator on one chip, and the analog shift registers, resistor based switches on a totally different chip, I DO think it is a DAC that is pushing the state-of-the-art at this price.

Certainly Topping wouldn't have made something so similar at a notably higher price unless it was truly a unique experience.
I like what I hear from it so far, honestly, compared to the ESS.

 

[rarewolf]

yeah, I think he is hearing an increase in detail. Significant? I am not sure. Depends on how you define significant. The AKM version seems to have more 'texture' detail and a bit better transient response.

Considering it has a totally unique new chipset that is made up of two parts, with filters and modulator on one chip, and the analog shift registers, resistor based switches on a totally different chip, I DO think it is a DAC that is pushing the state-of-the-art at this price.

Certainly Topping wouldn't have made something so similar at a notably higher price unless it was truly a unique experience.
I like what I hear from it so far, honestly, compared to the ESS.

I’m trying my best to be patient with my decision over the E70 vs E70V, and you are not making it easy. Still, I’m confident you’ll find something wrong with the “Velvet”…

Edit… not easy to save my money, that is…

 

[enz0pt]

I was leaning for the velvet but I decided that 100$ wouldn't cut it in terms of mid Fi, so I went and bought today the e70.
Hopefully it wasn't a mistake

 

[Crimson17]

I just got the ESS E70,is a nice upgrade from the E30.
Now it lack some bass rumble compared to the E30 that I have previously...but the extra clarity of the highs of the ESS E70 is a plus,it makes the vocal stands out
Am just very curious of how would the AKM E70 sounds,as I can't find anywhere to have a demo of it

 

[MLGrado]

I just got the ESS E70,is a nice upgrade from the E30.
Now it lack some bass rumble compared to the E30 that I have previously...but the extra clarity of the highs of the ESS E70 is a plus,it makes the vocal stands out
Am just very curious of how would the AKM E70 sounds,as I can't find anywhere to have a demo of it

yes, it's hard to get at this point. Direct from China is the only option it seems.

both versions measure similarly. I am posting the measurements from the E70V in post number 2 of this thread, compared to the E70 ESS version. But, they do not sound the same. They both carry the same basic characteristics, but the e70V has notably better transient performance and better texture and detail. The E70 is much more 'smooth' and 'inoffensive'. Two DACs that on the outside are absolute clones, same remote, same operating system, same display, etc. In a broad sense similar sound, with the E70V being more 'rambunctious'.

 

[rarewolf]

yes, it's hard to get at this point. Direct from China is the only option it seems.

both versions measure similarly. I am posting the measurements from the E70V in post number 2 of this thread, compared to the E70 ESS version. But, they do not sound the same. They both carry the same basic characteristics, but the e70V has notably better transient performance and better texture and detail. The E70 is much more 'smooth' and 'inoffensive'. Two DACs that on the outside are absolute clones, same remote, same operating system, same display, etc. In a broad sense similar sound, with the E70V being more 'rambunctious'.

Should we be at all concerned about the Velvet’s stand-out jitter for 16bit audio? (I mean “stand-out” in the sense that it’s almost 3x 24bit jitter—I have no idea what the jitter amplitude means, practically speaking. I usually lookfor bad jitter performance to the SPDIF inputs, as optical is important to me.)

I cannot wait to hear what “rambunctious” sounds like!

Cheers!

 

[MLGrado]

Should we be at all concerned about the Velvet’s stand-out jitter for 16bit audio? (I mean “stand-out” in the sense that it’s almost 3x 24bit jitter—I have no idea what the jitter amplitude means, practically speaking. I usually lookfor bad jitter performance to the SPDIF inputs, as optical is important to me.)

I cannot wait to hear what “rambunctious” sounds like!

Cheers!

no. what you see is an incredibly vanishingly low jitter which is trademark of the ESS chipset. It has exceptional jitter rejection, and its unusual to see jitter exceed 10 picoseconds RMS with these ESS chips.

23 picoseconds is excellent performance. Far below the level of audibility in my opinion. Frankly, both the E70 and E70V have performance numbers that exceed any standard of audibility many, many times over.

I have not had the chance to check the SPDIF performance yet. Theoretically, with the ESS chipset, it should be of little difference. AKM? I don't know.


For some context, I took a look at a few of the latest DAC reviews at HiFiNews, measured by the 'guru', Paul Miller.

The Auralic Altair G1.1 with ESS chipset was measured at 6 picoseconds. What word length wasn't specified.

The $15,000 DCS Lina, with its own custom 'RING DAC', was clocked at 21 picoseconds jitter.

The iFi Gryphon was under 10 picoseconds.

Now the really, really interesting one?? The DCS Vivaldi, the cream of the crop so to speak, of all DAC's, all 40 GRAND of it, was measured at 120 picoseconds RMS at 48khz. That did drop to 10 picoseconds at 96khz, though.

 

[rarewolf]

no. what you see is an incredibly vanishingly low jitter which is trademark of the ESS chipset. It has exceptional jitter rejection, and its unusual to see jitter exceed 10 picoseconds RMS with these ESS chips.

23 picoseconds is excellent performance. Far below the level of audibility in my opinion. Frankly, both the E70 and E70V have performance numbers that exceed any standard of audibility many, many times over.

I have not had the chance to check the SPDIF performance yet. Theoretically, with the ESS chipset, it should be of little difference. AKM? I don't know.


For some context, I took a look at a few of the latest DAC reviews at HiFiNews, measured by the 'guru', Paul Miller.

The Auralic Altair G1.1 with ESS chipset was measured at 6 picoseconds. What word length wasn't specified.

The $15,000 DCS Lina, with its own custom 'RING DAC', was clocked at 21 picoseconds jitter.

The iFi Gryphon was under 10 picoseconds.

Now the really, really interesting one?? The DCS Vivaldi, the cream of the crop so to speak, of all DAC's, all 40 GRAND of it, was measured at 120 picoseconds RMS at 48khz. That did drop to 10 picoseconds at 96khz, though.

First off, thank you for all you do for the audio community, as well as for putting your reported jitter measurements in context. I feel like a proverbial newb asking about the only archaic feature included with a state-of-the-art DAC only because “it’s there for backward compatibility”. I’m using an optical link to my current DAC only because it’s the only output from my streamer other than analog, and because it’s the primary source for my primary listening location independent of the server in the family room. Your work is helping me choose whether/when I should make any changes with respect to “weak links” relative to the sound quality from the Velvet.

I understand that there’s very few of your peers interested in the SPDIF jitter numbers—therefore no formal reporting required—but if you can make a quick measurement and a mental note, I’d certainly appreciate it.

By the way, I am practically convinced the Velvet is for me, my library of PCM audio, and within my budget. The only thing holding me back really is there isn’t much use in ordering it before the Chifi people return from their Lunar Year Holidays (next week?)

Cheers from Oliver’s Pond, Earth

 

[MLGrado]

First off, thank you for all you do for the audio community, as well as for putting your reported jitter measurements in context. I feel like a proverbial newb asking about the only archaic feature included with a state-of-the-art DAC only because “it’s there for backward compatibility”. I’m using an optical link to my current DAC only because it’s the only output from my streamer other than analog, and because it’s the primary source for my primary listening location independent of the server in the family room. Your work is helping me choose whether/when I should make any changes with respect to “weak links” relative to the sound quality from the Velvet.

I understand that there’s very few of your peers interested in the SPDIF jitter numbers—therefore no formal reporting required—but if you can make a quick measurement and a mental note, I’d certainly appreciate it.

By the way, I am practically convinced the Velvet is for me, my library of PCM audio, and within my budget. The only thing holding me back really is there isn’t much use in ordering it before the Chifi people return from their Lunar Year Holidays (next week?)

Cheers from Oliver’s Pond, Earth

PM me about my E70V. Since you seem super interested in buying one, I will not be keeping this demo. It is brand new except for my testing since it arrived last month. If you are interested just let me know.

And I am just waiting on my USB to SPDIF converter to get that test done. It is en route to me.

 

[MLGrado]

final testing of BOTH the Topping E70 and E70Velvet coming to an end. Full articles up before the date 2/10/23. There is so much material to dive into, I have decided indeed to split this into two separate reviews, one for each DAC. Yes, they are so similar, yet, they are so different as well they each deserve a full individual review at EuphonicReview.com. I can't wait to share this with you!

As soon as these DACs are out of the lab, the next item in for review will be the SMSL SU-10. Made in same factory as the Topping DACs, but definitely a higher price class.

 

[MLGrado]

Also, I will be measuring the SPDIF performance of these two DACs tomorrow or monday. I am expecting two different SPDIF converters to add to my measuring equipment. A generic converter branded 'Cubulix' is due to arrive tomorrow, while a Douk Audio Spdif converter with both Toslink and Coaxial connections is arriving monday. The Cubulix, based on who knows what, is likely just fine, but the Douk is built around a XMOS USB receiver.

 

[rarewolf]

Also, I will be measuring the SPDIF performance of these two DACs tomorrow or monday. I am expecting two different SPDIF converters to add to my measuring equipment. A generic converter branded 'Cubulix' is due to arrive tomorrow, while a Douk Audio Spdif converter with both Toslink and Coaxial connections is arriving monday. The Cubulix, based on who knows what, is likely just fine, but the Douk is built around a XMOS USB receiver.

Looking forward

 

[MLGrado]

I think the E70 is competitive and a good option for a warmer and more natural experience.

yes, I spent a LOT of time with the E70 alone today. It indeed is a warmer experience IMO than the E70V.

one other thing I have noticed, is that break-in over a period of a few weeks is required for these DAC's to be at their best.

I understand that not everyone buys into the idea of break-in, but my subjective anecdotal experience says it is a factor.

I was not a huge fan of the E70 sound on the first few days. But in time, it has 'opened up' notably. Unfortunately, there is nothing I can point to objectively in the measurements to back my experience. However, that neither proves nor disproves anything. So I will stick with what I DO know.. what I hear, hahaha.

The E70 sounds nice (smooth sound, midrange focused it seems), looks nice, is easy to operate, has a nice display, has a good remote, measures at a state-of-the-art level, offers both balanced and unbalanced outputs, has several bluetooth wireless options if you are into that, and based on my listening tests, sounds really, really good when playing back DSD files, or upconverted PCM to DSD via Roon. I found myself listening in DSD the majority of the time, as it provided the most personally involving experience compared to PCM. YMMV, though, of course.


E70V? The velvet part comes from AKM branding, but I find it ironic that the E70 is the 'smoother' version of the two, lol. E70V has better transient response, and more texture and fine detail. However, that doesn't mean its better. It varies from recording to recording.

It has been quite a fascinating experience comparing the two. I am drafting the final review of the E70 right now, and part of me will hate to see these go. But the majority of me is looking forward to getting the SMSL SU-10 in here. I want to hear what Topping/SMSL can do with twice the price to work with!

 

[MLGrado]

My review for the E70V is up. I probably should of done a more in depth comparison to the the E70 but I think my overall thoughts on the two are good enough,.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/topping-e70v-velvet.26322/reviews#review-30093

Nice!

I concur with your thoughts on what makes the E70V different.

I didn't find the Operating System to be terribly cumbersome myself; I think maybe it's because I was used to this kind of setup menu on older ESS DACs, such as Wyred4Sound. It definitely isn't modern, but it you have ever tried to use the setup menu on a RME DAC or AD/DA, the Topping menus seem like a piece of cake lol.

I do have a question about the DSD filters. Were you able to successfully change the DSD filter? On the E70 ESS version, the DSD filters come right after the PCM filters in the setup menu. It is a natural flow. Also, you can change them on the fly from the remote. But on the E70V AKM, at least on the one I recieved, there is simply no DSD filter option at all. It is set to one filter, and the user has no way to change it. Not even with the remote on-the-fly. The manual gets the filter frequencies wrong, but it DOES indicate that there should be two filter choices.

Again, great work on the review!!

 

[corgifall]

Nice!

I concur with your thoughts on what makes the E70V different.

I didn't find the Operating System to be terribly cumbersome myself; I think maybe it's because I was used to this kind of setup menu on older ESS DACs, such as Wyred4Sound. It definitely isn't modern, but it you have ever tried to use the setup menu on a RME DAC or AD/DA, the Topping menus seem like a piece of cake lol.

I do have a question about the DSD filters. Were you able to successfully change the DSD filter? On the E70 ESS version, the DSD filters come right after the PCM filters in the setup menu. It is a natural flow. Also, you can change them on the fly from the remote. But on the E70V AKM, at least on the one I recieved, there is simply no DSD filter option at all. It is set to one filter, and the user has no way to change it. Not even with the remote on-the-fly. The manual gets the filter frequencies wrong, but it DOES indicate that there should be two filter choices.

Again, great work on the review!!

Thanks and yeah, I think the UI complaints are minimum but I think most people will set it up once and never touch anything ever again. So it’s not end of the world.

I didn’t attempt to play with the DSD filters. I usually only attempt a quick listen on PCM filters. I normally can’t hear a difference except for a few NOS filter exceptions. I did however attempt to find the DSD filters in the setup menu and I didn’t see an option just like what you mentioned. Weird it’s missing. I couldn’t get anything to happen when I tried to use the remote on a DSD track either.