[Antony6555]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lousymusician /img/forum/go_quote.gif One of the difficulties I see in communicating the need for HP amps, and which amps will drive what phones is that there is a huge spread in the impedance of phones but few specs on the actual capabilities of the amplifiers that drive them.

Exactly, choosing a headphone amp is currently more an art than a science. Which probably plays no small role in the current tendency for amp costs to spiral way out of hand, as it is impossible to determine at what point your phones are being more than adequately driven.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Amps don't just make things louder, they also improve the sound.

No, a properly built amp is there to make it louder while not degrading the sound which is a very different concept. The idea behind an amp is "wire with gain".

If another amp isn't doing the job you can treat it like a preamp and have an amp that does do the job supplement it, it's pretty simple.

Personally I believe the law of diminishing returns hits very fast when it comes to solid state amps. Unless you can quote a specific deficiency it comes off pretty presumptuous to call certain amps "crap", especially when it seems to be prefaced by "cheap". Also, what defines "cheap", can you quantify that too?

Don't get me wrong, I surely don't advocate driving an HD800 from an ipod. However, I don't advocate going and dropping $1K for an amp that's probably overkill either.

 

[The Monkey]

There likely will not be a moar better post than Cat's in 2010.

 

[Asr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Two things. First, experienced members get fed up with their voiced being drowned out by clueless newbies, and they see bad advice winning out time and again. So, being human and having limited patience, they leave, which only makes the problem worse. Second, unscrupulous manufacturers see an environment in which there is a lot of headphone enthusiasm but nobody really knows the good stuff from the bad, since all the technical people have left. That means that there's a great potential here for selling snake oil and subpar products - after all if an HD650 out of a soundcard is considered a good buy in terms of price/performance, what's wrong with selling a mediocre but easy-to-drive headphone which will offer similar performance to an unamped HD650? Nevermind that the UM3x will kill it, the people that made this argument are long gone.

I would add another point in addition to catscratch's post. Not only does bad advice routinely win out over good advice offered by experienced members (for whatever reason), the good advice usually goes completely ignored. You'd think there would be some people who would recognize the good advice but invariably the vast majority of people on Head-Fi ignore it and follow the bad advice from a wide variety of sources (inexperienced people, "shills", fanboys, etc). Why waste time and effort posting advice then, if it's just going to be ignored?

Then there are other people who, for whatever reason, think that they'll find answers by sending PMs to people, like the self-appointed reviewers, or other higher-profile members, or members who own certain components. This leads to a question-and-answer exchange via PM that invariably comes to some sort of conclusion. The vast majority of people aren't even grateful for the personalized information that comes out of the Q&A and they sometimes even ignore the advice in the PM exchange to follow a different path. What then was the point in asking?

That is just one of the reasons why I currently have my PMs disabled.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, a properly built amp is there to make it louder while not degrading the sound which is a very different concept.

This really is something that a lot of people really dont get.

 

[bledig]

I listen to my Grado HF-2 straight from my iphone. To be honest it's ...kinda bad haha. My se530 is leaps and bounds above it! Although i will be getting the pico slim so i hope to start getting rainbows outta my ears.

btw does the HF-2 produce better sound than the se530?

 

[MomijiTMO]

Better? Slightly ambiguous...

 

[Ra97oR]

IMO, not all headphones needed an amp. But if it really needed it, it will sound bad unamped. *cough K701 iPod out, W5000 iPod out (W5000 is even worse in this case)* It does depends on which phones though, AD2000 iPod out is not unlistenable, but they do improve alot with an amp. But having hear most of the Luxman headamp line-up, I do wonder the difference worth it or not. As I said, my AD1000PRM sound rather bad from iPod out and X-Fi out, but improve alot with the Essence ST, to a level its close to an Luxman rig. Although close, its clearly the Luxman have a lead, but I am not sure its a £1000 lead. Maybe its is different with a more power hungry headphones, but not on an AD1000PRM or AD2000.

Amp does improve alot when the headphones needed it, but upgrading amp is not really a linear upgrade following (more money = far better sound) but that is true to most high-end parts anyway. IMO I can settle with the ST amp, but really rather want a better one as I heard better from my phone, just need to hold out for a good deal.

IMO the importantce of the chain:

Source file > Headphones/Source > Amp > Cables/Power >>> Quantum tunnelling stones

 

[feifan]

I've read the OP 3 times and the entire thread once. And I don't get it. Is this a genuine problem? Some have bought $1500 'phones for use with soundcards only? I don't read all the threads so I could've missed these posts, but I haven't seen a one.

If this isn't a genuine problem, then is the OP simply a rhetorical question? That is, the answer to "Do we need decent amps for good quality 'phones?" is an understood yes? If this is true, then I don't see any point in getting excited.

A secondary question seems to be: Are there soundcards with amps that are capable of adequately driving quality cans? Or are there amps built into iPods or portable amps that are adequate?

This secondary question is, for me, interesting. Interesting because I actually haven't taken the time to test it. I don't have an iPod so that test is out, at least for now. And I don't have a recently-developed portable amp. The ones I have are old. But I do have soundcards.

I have to admit, though, that I haven't seriously tested my quality cans out of the cards alone. I've always used an amp or DAC/amp.

I've assumed that external amping is automatically better. But is it? This is where "experience" actually might be a hindrance to learning. In this case, knowledge may be a dangerous thing because it makes me complacent in accepting on faith that, of course, standalone amps are superior to those built into soundcards. It makes me blind to the possibility that, just maybe, I'm wrong. This is where a noob can teach me a thing or two. And this is when I realize we're all noobs, after all.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony6555 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly, choosing a headphone amp is currently more an art than a science. Which probably plays no small role in the current tendency for amp costs to spiral way out of hand, as it is impossible to determine at what point your phones are being more than adequately driven.

I disagree. There are technical specs that will tell you if an amp is a good match to headphones. You have to look at the power output, impedance match and the output impedance curve.

The problem is that very few understand these things and a lot more make zero effort to understand them. There is a tendency to throw hands in the air, believe a load of nonsense about impedance and demand an amp that costs less than the headphones.

Which leads to cost. People also have very little understanding about what an amp costs. The only ones with a handle on this are manufacturers, DIY'ers and the enlightened few.

The reality is that transformers - good ones, mind you - are expensive. So is casing. And so is labor. Those costs do not track what headphones cost. There is no relationship between the cost of parts for a quality amp and the cost of headphones.

Because the parts for a good amp cost more than most headphones, people freak out and somehow think they're being taken advantage of. Anyone offering an opinion on what makes a quality amp is usually drowned out by a dozen others who insist that the el cheapo FOTM is the. best. evar. while not having heard anything else.

If you think that prices are out of control, go browse the Beta22 thread. See for yourself how much one costs. Check case prices at Par-Metal or others and see if you can find anything decent at a bargain basement price. Do you know how much it costs to DIY a case from scratch? Do you know the investment in tooling you need? Cases are not cheap, even when you mass produce. I had a long conversation with my friend, Ray Samuels, about the extensive prototyping and all the hoops he has to jump through for a case. It isn't cheap and it takes a lot of effort.

I don't mean to slam you, but most members here have no idea what it takes to produce an amp. Costs are entirely out of line with what it costs to produce a headphone. That might be a bitter pill to swallow when you think buying headphones is the total cost of entry, but it is the reality of the situation. Even if you DIY, you end up with a substantial cost that almost always exceeds the cost of the headphones you're driving. An amp made from $50 or $60 of parts in China simply isn't a very good amp.

 

[rhythmdevils]

I would take an HP1000/ipod over an sr80/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here] any day.

I would also take a HD600/ipod over the sr80/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here]

in fact, I would probably take an HD600/ipod over RS1/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here]

there's also plenty of examples of expensive models within the same brand sounding better then cheaper ones, even if the source/amp is cheap. I think the RS1 still sounds better then the sr80 when both are out of the ipod. Of course you're not getting everything out of them, but they still sound better.

 

[bledig]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomijiTMO /img/forum/go_quote.gif Better? Slightly ambiguous...

Just wondering if there are certain things that SE530 do better then HF-2? I got a general impression that these 2 does well in mids, which is probably whats important for me if listen to stuff from john mayer, dave matthews, kelly clarkson, ingrid michaelson, etc right. But about everything else?

Anyways just curious not really important.

Can't wait for my amp

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would take an HP1000/ipod over an sr80/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here] any day. I would also take a HD600/ipod over the sr80/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here] in fact, I would probably take an HD600/ipod over RS1/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here] there's also plenty of examples of expensive models within the same brand sounding better then cheaper ones, even if the source/amp is cheap. I think the RS1 still sounds better then the sr80 when both are out of the ipod. Of course you're not getting everything out of them, but they still sound better.

This is true to a point.
I'd be happy to wager that an ETY 4P would sound better out of an ipod than an HD600.
I dont agree with the HD600 vs the RS1 though.

Another thing that really ticks me off is peoples lack of understanding of basic physics. A lot of people think that higher ohms = harder to drive which is just not the case.

 

[chinesekiwi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know what's more telling, the original post, or the way in which the thread is turning out. You say that there's nothing wrong in liking, let's say, an HD650 out of a soundcard. You say that there are no measurements to prove that the HD650 out of an amp is superior (which is wrong, but let's not get into that just now). Fine, to each their own. But the truth is that for the money you spend on the HD650 you can get something that's significantly easier to drive that will outperform it. A UM3x for instance is very easy to drive and kills the HD650 when both are unamped, and so does the ESW9. So, you then go on to tell people that, because you like the HD650 out of a soundcard, they should go ahead and get the HD650 because it's easy to drive. And that is misleading. Because it's far from the best way they can spend their money. You need to have some experience in order to put sound in perspective. And just liking something because it's the first thing you've heard, or maybe because you happen to like the way it's voiced for whatever reason, is not enough. Every online forum and community has a hierarchy. There are people who have vast experience, and there are people who don't. And nobody likes being in the second category. So ever new member wants to pipe up with their advice. But when you don't have enough experience to know what you're talking about, you're doing everybody a disservice, and in an online community it's often hard for newer members to tell who knows their stuff and who doesn't. So, the situation progresses and as a community grows bigger and becomes more popular, the number of new members starts to outweigh the old. And if you have a trend where new members shout out whatever first comes into their mind in an effort to bulk up their post count and try to get on an even footing with experienced members - without actually having done all the work of becoming experienced in the hobby - the voice of the inexperienced starts to outweigh the experienced, and you have bad advice that becomes the norm and the de-facto standard on the board. Bear with me for a bit here. Let's just say, hypothetically, that the above has occurred (and for a time this was the case on HF, it's a bit better now). What does that mean in a practical, real-world environment? Two things. First, experienced members get fed up with their voiced being drowned out by clueless newbies, and they see bad advice winning out time and again. So, being human and having limited patience, they leave, which only makes the problem worse. Second, unscrupulous manufacturers see an environment in which there is a lot of headphone enthusiasm but nobody really knows the good stuff from the bad, since all the technical people have left. That means that there's a great potential here for selling snake oil and subpar products - after all if an HD650 out of a soundcard is considered a good buy in terms of price/performance, what's wrong with selling a mediocre but easy-to-drive headphone which will offer similar performance to an unamped HD650? Nevermind that the UM3x will kill it, the people that made this argument are long gone. So you end up having things like the Singlepower fiasco. And once upon a time, Mikhail did make good amps. It's just that he realized that, in the weakened state that head-fi was in, there was no need to deliver a quality product anymore. And it took years before the community finally caught on to the fact - despite several very experienced, technical members who have been warning about this for years. So what's the point of my rant? Every little thing you do affects the community. It may pad your ego to have 1500 posts about how you don't need to amp the HD650 in order to get it to sound good, but that sort of advice can have real, physical consequences. Put your ego in check for a little bit and if you want to be known as an expert, then go out there and get the expertise. Don't sit back and pretend that you do just for padding your post count. Oh yeah, you say, easy for you to say Cat, you're talking about ego, while mouthing off how much better you are than everybody else. Well screw that. I'm a noob. Once upon a time I knew what was out there but that was years ago, and the market is quite different now. Much of what I know is out of date. So what do I do? I shut the hell up, and don't talk about any subject that I'm clueless on. And that does a service to the community. And any time I do say something, it has the weight of many years of experience in the hobby behind it. And any time I make a fool of myself by being clueless, I expect more experienced people to smack me upside the head for it, and even though I may not appreciate it at the time in the long run I'm thankful that they do.

I am re-quoting this for justice. Every single word of it is too right.
The thing is many audiophiles just don't know even basic electrical engineering, psychology and psychoacoustics thus they get scammed.
Pure and simple. Admit it people. The world of audio is prime ready for profit-taking.

Anything I'm not sure about, I make sure I get help from others that know more than me in that specific area so therefore I know for future references.
Many don't even recommend headphones that suit the person's music taste.....

Experience and using that experience to filter what people say on here = key.
I've even made several posts in the past where I've ranted at how *facepalm* Head-fi can be at times.....

Thing is though price also comes into it.

For example, IEM's and in-ears are much cheaper to obtain and check out thus why, to be honest, there is far more comparisons and analysis of different IEM's to one another.

I admit, I'm a DT880 (specifically 600 ohm version but generally as well) fanboy. But there's a reason for that. I've heard all the other favourites in this price range the K701, HD650, HD600, DT880 '03 and tbh, properly amped, I haven't heard anything better for all-roundness. There's even evidence for others to back this up from rather experienced users. I see very little complaints about them compared to say the others.

 

[majkel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif in fact, I would probably take an HD600/ipod over RS1/[insert expensive grado friendly amp here]

I will put RS1/iRiver E10 against HD600/desktop setup and you might be in serious financial problems to remain on the surface. Then I put iRiver E10/Ultrasone Edition 8 against HD600/desktop rig and you are in serious feasibility problems to outperform the ED8's sound quality yet obtained.

There is nothing wrong in connecting the HD650 to a soundcard especially when you don't re-cable them with something more transparent than the stock cable because this headphone/cable combo is so distant, dark and colored sounding that it will hide all inconveniences of the cheap "digital" sound.

Going further, it's a great misconception to say high impedance 'phones are heavy loads for portable stuff. It's the opposite - they are easier load but the only problem is the maximum amplitude on the output to listen to them at normal/loud levels. For silent listening, there is no "underpowering" thing in a pair with a DAP/PCDP. I listened to DT880 from a Teclast T39 or HD600 from iRiver H340 and E10, both provided very good sound quality but with limited volume setting. You need both good source and amp to get better and louder at one time.

Another problem is bashing portable sources per say. I compared iRiver E10 to laptop/pro USB DAC/iTube Fatman setup and believe me, trebles, midrange openness and soundstage were better from the DAP than from this desktop rig. The only better thing from the Fatman was bass slam and low end extension. Going higher with the frequency there was just more mess and congestion.

All the above was true for the mid-fi. When you enter high-end, the source becomes the serious issue because it's not that difficult to have a transparent enough amp at the roughly $2k price level. The high end cans kind of OII, PS1000, K1000, HD800, GS1000 show every subtle source error and people blame headphones for making sound fatiguing. The OII will show you what is Accuphase DC801/DP800 capable of and then might show you how better will be a high end vinyl setup when you take exactly the same album on both SACD and vinyl discs and then switch the amp input.

Last thing is a common newbie problem that they just don't believe and can't imagine it might be (much) better than what they hear at the moment and just amazed them for the first time as such an intensive experience. Kind of people thinking there is nothing behind the horizon which they see for the first time.