[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Going further, it's a great misconception to say high impedance 'phones are heavy loads for portable stuff.

Orly?
I didn't know that you could get required voltage from a power supply < 12 V DC

They take less current, yeah but if this were true then electrostats would be small time for portables- and yet portables consistently struggle to provide the bias that a lot of electrostats need.

If you'd like to provide some calculations or theories, I'll gladly read them.

Efficiency (sensitivity) is more an issue for volume from portables [which IMO is not an issue within reason because most portables go very loud], but portables are better at providing current than voltage, arent they?

 

[tvrboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree. There are technical specs that will tell you if an amp is a good match to headphones. You have to look at the power output, impedance match and the output impedance curve.

OK then, where is this information? Seriously, tell me how to find it and I will be very happy. Tell me where to find an output impedance curve for, say, the Gilmore Lite and Grace M902. I couldn't find it on their websites.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree. There are technical specs that will tell you if an amp is a good match to headphones. You have to look at the power output, impedance match and the output impedance curve.

For a large number of amps, however, before buying them there is insufficient information provided (voltage output, impedance output). The M^3 is an example of an amp with an excellent amount of information available.

When all is said and done IMO going to meets and/or auditioning amps is the best way to go about it. Particularly auditioning something out of your price range so you will know if the amp you are getting is truly worth it.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

This post is full of 'senior members' whose overall tone is that you 'newbies' need to become more educated about electronics before you can post here and you have to have more experience about headphones and amps before you can comment. It is not really a forum, it is more of a teaching school whose pupils have run amock.

The tone of a forum is set by its senior members, who were once newbies themselves. The tone is preachy and I know best in a high and mighty way. Senior members are also very argumentative and regularly disagree, so setting the general argumentative nature of the forum. There is also an attitude of you really need to spend more money to get proper sound.

Some examples. My main kit cost just over £1000, add my other stuff, portable and the PC I need then you can easily get to nearly £2000 to replace it all. I was told that I was putting together a nice budget set up. That kind of comment can easilt be taken as a put down.

Another example. I posted a thread asking about how do you guage headphone sensitivity. I had mistakenly thought it was down to the ohms. Myself and another were given advice, which we did not really understand and I was then treated to a response of 'just accept it'. I shall be seaking answers elsewhere for that one, because I want to understand and no just accept what I have been told. So, as I said, preachy and high and mighty.

Faced with that, I am sure newbies also adopt that attitude, hence the problems of 'bad advice' drowning out 'good advice'.

 

[majkel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif Orly? I didn't know that you could get required voltage from a power supply < 12 V DC They take less current, yeah but if this were true then electrostats would be small time for portables- and yet portables consistently struggle to provide the bias that a lot of electrostats need. If you'd like to provide some calculations or theories, I'll gladly read them.

HD600 SPL is 102dB/V. At half of that you will get 96dB. Is this a long time safe level? I don't think so but powerful DAPs might provide it.

Regarding the electrostats - you need a 500V constant bias to make them work, then you care for the third voltage and it's proper swing applied on a capacitive load. So a proper amp is a must.
Quote:

Efficiency (sensitivity) is more an issue for volume from portables [which IMO is not an issue within reason because most portables go very loud], but portables are better at providing current than voltage, arent they?

They suck at both, actually.

The real issue with low impedance headphones connected to portable stuff is its limited current efficiency for high amplitude transients as they neither provide high current buffer nor their capacitors are enough charge reserve to induce proper current swings.

 

[tvrboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif The tone of a forum is set by its senior members, who were once newbies themselves. The tone is preachy and I know best in a high and mighty way. Senior members are also very argumentative and regularly disagree, so setting the general argumentative nature of the forum. There is also an attitude of you really need to spend more money to get proper sound.

Depends what "proper sound" you want. If you want the best this game has to offer, then yeah, you gotta spend lots of money. I accept that, and I shoot lower than the best. Also, I would rather listen to members who own stuff like an O2, JH13, HD800, etc than members who have gone no higher in the food chain than a K701. I think you can't really make a judgment about where a headphone fits in the whole hierarchy of the headphone world until you have heard a LOT of stuff. I haven't, so I trust the people who have.

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif They suck at both, actually. The real issue with low impedance headphones connected to portable stuff is its limited current efficiency for high amplitude transients as they neither provide high current buffer nor their capacitors are enough charge reserve to induce proper current swings.

Thats better

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvrboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Depends what "proper sound" you want. If you want the best this game has to offer, then yeah, you gotta spend lots of money. I accept that, and I shoot lower than the best. Also, I would rather listen to members who own stuff like an O2, JH13, HD800, etc than members who have gone no higher in the food chain than a K701. I think you can't really make a judgment about where a headphone fits in the whole hierarchy of the headphone world until you have heard a LOT of stuff. I haven't, so I trust the people who have.

Indeed, but with one caveat... you grow to trust that this more experienced individual seems to like what you like among the cans that you have experience with. IOW's, if I love a particular can and a very experienced head-fier dislikes it, I'll always take that experienced head-fier's impressions/recommendations with caution. There are already a few obviously experienced head-fiers here whose impressions I largely disregard since it's now quite clear to me that we prefer different sonic signatures for musical enjoyment.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif This post is full of 'senior members' whose overall tone is that you 'newbies' need to become more educated about electronics before you can post here and you have to have more experience about headphones and amps before you can comment. It is not really a forum, it is more of a teaching school whose pupils have run amock. The tone of a forum is set by its senior members, who were once newbies themselves. The tone is preachy and I know best in a high and mighty way. Senior members are also very argumentative and regularly disagree, so setting the general argumentative nature of the forum. There is also an attitude of you really need to spend more money to get proper sound. Some examples. My main kit cost just over £1000, add my other stuff, portable and the PC I need then you can easily get to nearly £2000 to replace it all. I was told that I was putting together a nice budget set up. That kind of comment can easilt be taken as a put down. Another example. I posted a thread asking about how do you guage headphone sensitivity. I had mistakenly thought it was down to the ohms. Myself and another were given advice, which we did not really understand and I was then treated to a response of 'just accept it'. I shall be seaking answers elsewhere for that one, because I want to understand and no just accept what I have been told. So, as I said, preachy and high and mighty. Faced with that, I am sure newbies also adopt that attitude, hence the problems of 'bad advice' drowning out 'good advice'.

I think the tone here is that newbies should become more educated and in many instances, could be more receptive to being educated. Adding 'before you can comment' to that? I don't see where that came from. However, I do see specifics about the nature of commenting. Making what is a relative comment or assessment that requires experience which a newbie wouldn't have is inappropriate. It's only logical. At times, the newbie doesn't even realize this and has an attitude that goes with resistance to being aware of this.

All things being relative a £2000 system can be considered a budget system.

There are some really uber-expensive systems available. If you take the comment in context, you'll not be so easily offended by it.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif This post is full of 'senior members' whose overall tone is that you 'newbies' need to become more educated about electronics before you can post here and you have to have more experience about headphones and amps before you can comment. It is not really a forum, it is more of a teaching school whose pupils have run amock. The tone of a forum is set by its senior members, who were once newbies themselves. The tone is preachy and I know best in a high and mighty way. Senior members are also very argumentative and regularly disagree, so setting the general argumentative nature of the forum. There is also an attitude of you really need to spend more money to get proper sound. Some examples. My main kit cost just over £1000, add my other stuff, portable and the PC I need then you can easily get to nearly £2000 to replace it all. I was told that I was putting together a nice budget set up. That kind of comment can easilt be taken as a put down.

That's kinda of sad. I'm the one who posted that in response to your your request:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif Fine. I am sure any newcomer is now well aware of the repeated sage adivice of the Head-Fi Old-timers. So how about some examples, especially if you are on a budget.

I looked at your signature, saw what you owned, and thought you had been doing just fine for yourself. I meant it as a compliment, especially considering this thread was never about budget gear, or mid-fi gear, but very high-end headphones, where spending more money to get proper sound from those specific and very few headphones is often true. Sorry you took it the opposite way.

Quote:

Another example. I posted a thread asking about how do you guage headphone sensitivity. I had mistakenly thought it was down to the ohms. Myself and another were given advice, which we did not really understand and I was then treated to a response of 'just accept it'. I shall be seaking answers elsewhere for that one, because I want to understand and no just accept what I have been told. So, as I said, preachy and high and mighty. Faced with that, I am sure newbies also adopt that attitude, hence the problems of 'bad advice' drowning out 'good advice'.

Though I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're looking for, in the first post in the Hopefully Helpful Guide to Newbies, stickied above in this forum, there's a rather nice explanation of the differences and interplay of sensitivity and impedance in headphones, written out by Cool_Torpedo. Just scroll down to the quotes I added, and look for atothex's quoted post.

Oh...and just a word of advice: If you don't like arguing, and folks who talk to others as if they have all the answers and you don't, stay away from the Sound Science forum, where you had posted your question. There's a lot of good information there, but it is what it is as far as tone.

 

[Drubbing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif I disagree completely with the OP's message. By writing this you are making newcomers think that they must spend a fortune to get a "close to ideal" sound, and it is not true. A good amplifier is not expensive. A good source is a portable CD player or a PMP, even a soundcard (EMU cards for example). Yeah listen to what xnor is saying.

Rubbish. This thread and OPs opinion is sadly needed on this site, which has gone way downhill in in misinformation, post whoring, circle jerking and all sorts of poor activities that massive forums can generate. He isn't advocating that at all - he's advocating that members here stop leading people astray.

The response following the OP post that newbs have to learn the hard way is either a joke, or indicative of some of the malicious misinformation spread around here. Not every newb on here want to take an audio 'journey' they're trusting a large site and its uber geeky resources to provide informed and useful info.

THe audio basics of choosing, or not choosing a hard to drive phone are fairly basic to get to grips with. I did so without all the confusion created on here about low end amps with piss poor power being able to crank up a 701 to its best.

THIS is the whole point of this thread, and so many people keep missing it, in an effot to join in the noise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't know what's more telling, the original post, or the way in which the thread is turning out. You say that there's nothing wrong in liking, let's say, an HD650 out of a soundcard. You say that there are no measurements to prove that the HD650 out of an amp is superior (which is wrong, but let's not get into that just now). Fine, to each their own. But the truth is that for the money you spend on the HD650 you can get something that's significantly easier to drive that will outperform it. A UM3x for instance is very easy to drive and kills the HD650 when both are unamped, and so does the ESW9. So, you then go on to tell people that, because you like the HD650 out of a soundcard, they should go ahead and get the HD650 because it's easy to drive. And that is misleading. Because it's far from the best way they can spend their money. You need to have some experience in order to put sound in perspective. And just liking something because it's the first thing you've heard, or maybe because you happen to like the way it's voiced for whatever reason, is not enough.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the tone here is that newbies should become more educated and in many instances, could be more receptive to being educated...... All things being relative a £2000 system can be considered a budget system......

Preachy and elitist, which helps to set the tone for this forum.

 

[Menisk]

Quote:

Another example. I posted a thread asking about how do you guage headphone sensitivity. I had mistakenly thought it was down to the ohms. Myself and another were given advice, which we did not really understand and I was then treated to a response of 'just accept it'. I shall be seaking answers elsewhere for that one, because I want to understand and no just accept what I have been told. So, as I said, preachy and high and mighty.

I know you're talking about the thread you started, but I'll apologize about the way I brought that to your attention. It wasn't very tactful and I should've thought of a more productive way to approach it.

 

[MomijiTMO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man /img/forum/go_quote.gif Preachy and elitist, which helps to set the tone for this forum.

Wow, way to take a post OUT OF CONTEXT. Congrats for poor debating skills.

I've been at this site a lot less but I enjoy reading up on things so I agree with aimlink. You tell someone something and they don't believe you. Yay. They ask a question that has been asked a billion times before [ie, HD6x0 or k70x amp, do I need an amp, which grado etc etc]. A search is your best friend. I did it, why can't others? Am I an internet forum elitist?

 

[swbf2cheater]

The normal person with a life and job cannot afford to run out and buy an HD800 as well as a great source and amp. Most people would just use their pc, which by itself isnt bad, but not as nice as a great amp would be. Bottom line, the majority of the world is poor. It's clear the OP was not poor.