[Stooge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomijiTMO /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're gonna run into HUGE problems if you follow that route. There are many amps people say work well with a dt880 250ohm [for an example] that I don't think have a chance in hell of driving them. Let's just say that the more you spend, the weirder things get.

Sorry, which post/concept are you referring too?

Edit: What about these amps (specs?) leads you to the conclusion that they would be unsuitable for the DT880s? What are the minimum requirements you would look for in an amp to power the DT880-250ohm well? Are these requirements calculated in a manner similar to tomb's approach (as far as assessing voltage swing is concerned)?

 

[Cole-Gauthier]

What about running flac trough X-Fi Elite pro then trough My Denon AH-D7000?

 

[chinesekiwi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikzen /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you want good sound, you have to be willing to invest a little. A little research, a little time listening (hopefully auditioning) and a little money. I've been playing the headphone game here for quite a few years now. I joined Head-Fi looking for a decent pair of portable headphones and stuck around. My headpone knowledge has grown tremendously and with it my tastes and of course my gear. My approach is to build slowly, making changes over long periods of time. I've been partially constrained by budget. I think more people should think about budget and bang for your buck. Some people in Head-Fi seem to be very casual about money. People post budget limits and then end up buying something several hundred dollars more, often times encouraged by other members. If you have the money and that's what you want to spend it on that's fine, but it's not the only way and may not be the most practical way. However, I think you learn more if you move up the ladder slowly. You learn what sounds good and what doesn't. What you like and don't like. This helps you make better decisions and as such you spend more efficiently. I've progressed from an Airhead, to various portable amps, transportable amps and desktop amps, headphones, sources. I'm at the point now where my rig costs me about $2000, maybe a little less. Now $2000 is not chicken feed, but it's also not an astronomical amount, especially in this neighborhood. I've heard plenty of high end headphone rigs and I can honestly say that I am completely satisfied with what I have now. Sure I'll probably upgrade a component at some point, but I have heard what the really high end rigs sound like. My rig is not that far off and is certainly very enjoyable for me, night in and night out. The point is, you do have to spend some money and time, to make sure all the components work well together. You can't get away cheap if you want good sound. But you don't have to go for broke either.

re-quoting for absolute truth.

Remember also that you are in an Audio & Visual related hobby. That means prices in correlation to performance can mean sweet ____ all. Also know the pitfalls of your hobby (that being in this case snake oil products) and well, the pitfalls of Head-fi. Yes, there are pitfalls of Head-fi apart from burning a hole in your pocket.

Do lots of research before you buy stuff. Compare one thing to another.
Ask members who have the equipment at hand questions in a thread or through private PMs. Know your music tastes. Know your budget.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stooge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry, which post/concept are you referring too? Edit: What about these amps (specs?) leads you to the conclusion that they would be unsuitable for the DT880s? What are the minimum requirements you would look for in an amp to power the DT880-250ohm well? Are these requirements calculated in a manner similar to tomb's approach (as far as assessing voltage swing is concerned)?

Most likely. Although, the really bad amp-buster is the 600 ohm version of some Beyer cans. 250 ohm is not as bad as 300 ohm Senns and there are many amps that can handle that. Again, with an impedance that high (600 ohms), a huge voltage swing capability is needed for the same amount of power (dB) and at a similar efficiency compared to a lower impedance can.

If you consider that PC sound cards are starting with only +or- 2.5V prior to any circuit board boosting that may exist (degrades power quality) or that a typical receiver/integrated amp is built for 8 ohms and may use a resistor ahead of the headphone socket that will push that load impedance even higher, both are poor matchups compared to a reasonable quality headphone amp. For instance, a simple dual-9V battery CMoy can push +or- 8V or more, depending on the opamp. (It's not necessarily a good choice for a 32 ohm can that needs more current, though.)

 

[VALIENTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erikzen /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you want good sound, you have to be willing to invest a little. A little research, a little time listening (hopefully auditioning) and a little money. My approach is to build slowly, making changes over long periods of time. I've been partially constrained by budget. I think more people should think about budget and bang for your buck. The point is, you do have to spend some money and time, to make sure all the components work well together.

I second the motion to this statements.
That is why I am still using just my Discman and portable amp with my new K701. Then, as the experience continues, as I do researches, I will find for a desktop amp. And so the story of my headi mania continues. I try to do it slowly so I will experience all the ways. And best of all I'm always in the search for the bang for the buck.

Thank you erikzen.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stooge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you clarify why the AMB Mini^3 is unsuitable for HD 650s? How can you calculate what impedance an amp can handle? In your x-head example can you provide a breakdown like tomb's example that would show the amps ability to provide adequate voltage swing (assuming the specs for this are available for this amp) for headphones such as the HD 650s?

Your best bet is dealing with amp manufactures that are forthcoming about what their amps can and can't handle. The Mini^3 doesn't provide enough voltage for the HD650 as it's a non-static load that goes well above 300ohms. This will introduce clipping distortion.

As you can see the impedance changes . . . 10-500hz will all suffer clipping distortion on an amp that can't provide enough power at those impedances.

 

[David.M]

the TL;DR version of this thread just in case some of you are too lazy to read the first 30 pages or so.


There will always be something bigger and badder around the corner. The key to quality sound is to do your homework, find something similar to your tastes, ask questions(even if you have to spam pm's to random people) find upgradeable/stable set-ups and don't exceed your budget proximity

 

[chinesekiwi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most likely. Although, the really bad amp-buster is the 600 ohm version of some Beyer cans. 250 ohm is not as bad as 300 ohm Senns and there are many amps that can handle that. Again, with an impedance that high (600 ohms)

Not totally true. An 'amp buster' is very much a headphone that has crap synergy. I consider Sennheiser HD6xx and the AKG K701 to be more 'amp busters' as if they disagree with your choice of amp, it will produce the 'Sennheiser veil' and with the K701, sound tinny and thin with no bass.

The DT880 matches much better with any amp. All you are going to do is 'underpower' the headphone if your amp is inadequate.

 

[Stooge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most likely. Although, the really bad amp-buster is the 600 ohm version of some Beyer cans. 250 ohm is not as bad as 300 ohm Senns and there are many amps that can handle that. Again, with an impedance that high (600 ohms), a huge voltage swing capability is needed for the same amount of power (dB) and at a similar efficiency compared to a lower impedance can. If you consider that PC sound cards are starting with only +or- 2.5V prior to any circuit board boosting that may exist (degrades power quality) or that a typical receiver/integrated amp is built for 8 ohms and may use a resistor ahead of the headphone socket that will push that load impedance even higher, both are poor matchups compared to a reasonable quality headphone amp. For instance, a simple dual-9V battery CMoy can push +or- 8V or more, depending on the opamp. (It's not necessarily a good choice for a 32 ohm can that needs more current, though.)

Okay so using the DT880 600ohm version as an example headphone, can you provide an analysis similar to the one you did using the HD600 driven via sound card? This example was helpful because you demonstrated how much voltage swing the HD600 needs. Once you have this information can you not eliminate certain amps that are not capable of providing this swing (which doesn't mean the amps are bad, just that they are not suitable for the HD600)? I think information like this would be very helpful for people.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your best bet is dealing with amp manufactures that are forthcoming about what their amps can and can't handle. The Mini^3 doesn't provide enough voltage for the HD650 as it's a non-static load that goes well above 300ohms. This will introduce clipping distortion. As you can see the impedance changes . . . 10-500hz will all suffer clipping distortion on an amp that can't provide enough power at those impedances.

Okay but can you show that the Mini^3 in incapable of supplying enough voltage for an HD650 using a formula such as the one that tomb used. If you can provide a clear formula that would be very helpful to understand what amp specs are necessary to drive an HD650.

There are many examples in this thread where people say some amps are obviously not capable of driving certain headphones. An example of this is boomana statement I quoted earlier: Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Some folks think that portable amps can drive the HD650s well. That is 100% false, though they can sure make them loud, and some folks will enjoy the sound.

Once again I'm looking for the information that will allow me to determine this myself. If I can understand, by analyzing the specs of the HD 650, that it will require X-amount of voltage swing then I have a foundation to help me choose a proper amp. For example if it's determined that the HD650s require +or-5V (or a total swing of 10V) then I know the amps that cannot manage this (assuming the specs are available for the amp) are unsuitable for the HD650 (they of course may be suitable for other headphones).

 

[Shike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stooge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Okay but can you show that the Mini^3 in incapable of supplying enough voltage for an HD650 using a formula such as the one that tomb used. If you can provide a clear formula that would be very helpful to understand what amp specs are necessary to drive an HD650

I don't have a formula so to speak, but I do have a link to the specifications and measurements direct from the amp designers homepage here under "Specifications".

He rates output 33-330ohms. Hope that helps some.