[71 dB]

It’s NOT my intention to show you your place or humble you, just to correct inaccuracies or falsehoods where I’m able.

I know, but it feels like being shown my place and humbled when someone is able to point out those inaccuracies and falsehoods. Some people are able to block all criticism and live in their own delusions of being right. I am not. It means minor existential crises and re-organisation of the internal structures in my mind for me. This is of course not your problem. It is my problem.

There’s not just one way. Sometimes it’s massive natural talent, sometimes it’s purely huge amounts of hard work to the point of an obsessive disorder but mostly it’s a bit of both. In my case, I was dropped into the deep end in a big way a few times and I worked obsessively hard to avoid looking like an idiot. After quite some time of doing that, some people started to “look up to me”, which was a big shock because I felt I was still just trying to avoid being the idiot amongst my peers/competitors.

To me the term "hard work" is weird. I have a level of working. I can't work less or more hard than that. Why? Because working less hard feels inefficient and stupid and working harder would exhaust me fast so that I would be unable to work further for a while. So, there is only one level of working for me, the level I can sustain and that feels efficient. So, to me the thought that a person can choose the level of working is strange. Deadlines don't suite for me at all for this reason, unless the deadline happens to the same as my natural working speed, but in that case I would have completed the work by the deadline anyway.

You’re lucky, when I started about 30 years ago, computer DAWs were just toys for enthusiasts, incapable of pro standards. Entry price to pro standards at that time was about $200k minimum and that was for a cut down/compromised system!

I have made music with computers for 30 years too. In the 90's it just was insanely crappy. I had Amiga 500 + Protracker. Four channels, 2 on the left, 2 on the right. In late 90's I used a PC. It had very noisy analog sound card. It has taken me decades to learn everything I know today, but it has also been an interesting hobby. It has been mindblowing to realize how much there is to learn. Something as simple as dynamic compression contains so much stuff to learn, and that is just a fraction of what goes to making music.

If by hardware you mean mics and recording facilities, then yes, it gets expensive fast, if you want pro quality recordings. But if you’re OK with just synths, samples and virtual instruments, it’s ridiculously cheap. GarageBand is really a toy, Audacity is good for audio editing and some specific audio tasks but is NOT a decent DAW for music production.

Well, a typical home studio has a couple of mics and so on, but there's also monitor speakes (a pair of small Genelec speakers isn't cheap), room treatment, analog synths for "warm" sound etc.

Garageband is a toy, but you can do a lot with it already. I'm able to mix in Audacity using my on method of mixing.

As you probably know, Pro Tools is pretty much the industry standard, virtually all the top studios use it. Many composers/song writers prefer Logic Audio or CuBase but for the seriously budget conscious, Reaper (https://www.reaper.fm) is the popular choice. It’s a proper DAW, mature, stable and very well featured, including for multi-channel. It comes with various supplied plugins and supports VST/VST3, AU and other plug-in formats, so if you’re willing to search around there’s many good free plugins. The life-time license is $60 but after the 60 day trial you can continue using it without paying the license, if you don’t mind the “nag screen”. I would say it’s a no brainier for you.

G

Yes, of course I know that. At some point I looked at these "affordable" DAWs and the prices were around 200-300 dollars. At the moment my main interest is in composing, but I'll keep Reaper in mind.

"Purchase a license directly by sending a check or money order in USD, drawn on a US bank." What the hell? No Paypal or Credit Card?

 

[71 dB]

I registered on this forum 5 years ago because I was a fool who thought I know something. Of course I don't! I am a loser who can never be an expert of anything. Because of this I have zero value as a person. I have almost nothing to give to the World. I try, of course, but other people do everything 1000 times better than me so of course my offerings have zero value in comparison. All I can do is live this poor life of an unemployed bum on social security and hope for as left-leaning politics as possible.

Yoda says DO OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY. My life has been trying and failing time after time. My midi-chlorian count must be very low... ...I didn't get to choose my parents so I got crappy DNA. The World doesn't seem to need people like me anywhere. All skills and talent I think I have seems to be useless in current capitalism while the skills and talent I should have I do not have at all. The World wants tall, sporty and beautiful and handsome people. I am short, ugly and not sporty at all. The World wants video game coders. I have never been into video games and I am crappy coder for someone with university degree in engineering. In the 80's when I has a teenager I did not understand that gaming industry will be HUGE in the 21st century. I thought I am good if I can do some math, but I have learned that employers do nothing with math heads without million other skills (which I of course don't have!). Capitalsm needs productiove people. I am not productive. Social networks are impotant. I am not into that at all, because I am extremely introverted. I like to be alone most of the time.

Sorry World, I don't "fit in." Someday you will get rid of me when I die. Before that happens, I listen to music with cross feed and I don't give a crap about anything else.

 

[bigshot]

I’m gonna eat some worms…

 

[FlavioWolff]

This thread is a true patrimony of Head-Fi.

 

[redrol]

Ive been using Cooledit which is now Adobe Audition for maaany years. I really enjoy its low level wave editing stuff. Sometimes I'll make a track just by editing a single waveform endlessly. Great for just banging out mic recorded tracks as well.

 

[BobG55]

I’m gonna eat some worms…

Personally, I would start with the gummy ones. Then work my way up gradually (or down since that’s where they live).

 

[Vamp898]

I just discovered this thread and i don't really get what crossfeed is supposed to do.

I was so curious that i actually tried it with a few of my songs but somehow i still don't really get it.

What exactly is it supposed to do?

For example i have one song where the drum is on the middle right and the sound spreads from this position, across the whole room and reverbs/reflects from the wall from different positions.

With crossfeed this effect is lower. So the drum is now a bit more in the middle and this refelection and "travel" effect of the drum is almost completely gone. So its like the room around the drum disappeard and now its only the drum without any room. But... why? Is this the effect?

I read it sounds best with good acoustic recordings so i tried again with some of my best live acoustic recordings and its just that everything got closer. Instead of a concert hall, im suddenly in a room, but everything still sounds like in a hall. Just weird. The large stage the instruments were on just shrunk and every instrument is more tightly together, but they still have the specific hall sound. It sounds a bit like they played the concert in a smaller room and used some kind of hall effect

Also the crowd that was "around" more, is now a bit more left/right and less "around" and it sounds more like im standing inside people instead of people stand around me.

With faster music it tends to distord a little and just starts to sound mushy.

I don't get it, what it is suposed to do? I checked some sample recordings on the internet that should show exactly how it works with some before/after examples.

But the before recordings sound very strange and unnatural and have totally messed and over the place soundstage, layering and so on. So is the idea to fix such bad recordings where the mixer went all out and placed the instruments just randomly all over the place?

At least with the acoustic recordings i have, everything just starts to sound off and wrong so maybe i don't have the material to profit from this.

 

[71 dB]

I just discovered this thread and i don't really get what crossfeed is supposed to do.

It is supposed to simulate acoustic cross-feed when you listen to speakers (both ears hear sound from both speakers which reduces channel separation. With headphones this doesn't happens and for some people me included the resulting channel separation feel unnaturally large, but using cross-feed this problem can be eased or even fixed).

I was so curious that i actually tried it with a few of my songs but somehow i still don't really get it.

The best way to understand what cross-feed does is to use test signals (for example pink noise) and play it on left or right channel only. Then compare the sound cross-feed on and off. It should be clear how cross-feed reduces the unpleasantness of having sound on one ear only, especially at low frequencies. Nest step is to use cross-feed with recordings with very ping-pongy stereophony. Some recordings don't even "need" of benefit from cross-feed, because they have mixed to not contain large channel separation. Cross-feed doesn't work with binaural recordings. The more ping-pongy the more benefits there are.

What exactly is it supposed to do?

Read above.

For example i have one song where the drum is on the middle right and the sound spreads from this position, across the whole room and reverbs/reflects from the wall from different positions.

With crossfeed this effect is lower. So the drum is now a bit more in the middle and this refelection and "travel" effect of the drum is almost completely gone. So its like the room around the drum disappeard and now its only the drum without any room. But... why? Is this the effect?

Yes, this is what happens more of less. Without cross-feed the drum is heard too far from the middle and cross-feed moves it closer to where it "should" be and where it is when you listen to the track on speakers. Your ears are used to unnatural spatial cues and now when cross-feed modifies them more natural, they feel "anemic" in comparison, but if you listen to longer your ears adjust to the more natural spatiality and you start to notice the benefits of reduced listening fatigue, more natural bass, more and ordered spatiality. That's what my ears do at least. I can't know how you experience things.

The level of cross-feed is important because recording differ with each other. Ping-pongy recordings need extreme cross-feed while some almost binaural recordings may benefit from only a very subtle cross-feed if at all. So, if cross-feed kills too much of the "room" then the level is too high. The trick is to have the correct balance and without cross-feed there is too much going on.

I read it sounds best with good acoustic recordings so i tried again with some of my best live acoustic recordings and its just that everything got closer. Instead of a concert hall, im suddenly in a room, but everything still sounds like in a hall. Just weird. The large stage the instruments were on just shrunk and every instrument is more tightly together, but they still have the specific hall sound. It sounds a bit like they played the concert in a smaller room and used some kind of hall effect

Again, the level of cross-feed is important. Also, when you put the crossfeed on, your hearing compares the sound to no cross-feed sound and it feel "dead" for a minute of so, but if you keep listening your ears adapt and the sound "widens" up again, only in a less fatiguing and more natural way. This is similar to speed blindness. Listening to music without cross-feed is like driving very fast and when you reduce your speed for a while it feels like your speed was almost zero.

Also the crowd that was "around" more, is now a bit more left/right and less "around" and it sounds more like im standing inside people instead of people stand around me.

Again, how does the crowd sound after a while when your ears have adapted?

With faster music it tends to distord a little and just starts to sound mushy.

I have never experienced this and I don't know why this would happen. For my ears proper cross-feed cleans up the spatiality and makes it easier to ear separate sounds in the music, so I'd say cross-feed makes music less mushy for me.

I don't get it, what it is suposed to do? I checked some sample recordings on the internet that should show exactly how it works with some before/after examples.

But the before recordings sound very strange and unnatural and have totally messed and over the place soundstage, layering and so on. So is the idea to fix such bad recordings where the mixer went all out and placed the instruments just randomly all over the place?

As I said above, the more ping-pongy recording, the more benefits can be had using cross-feed. Personally I get benefits with maybe 98 % of recordings. The rest 2 % are so binaural spatially, that using even the mildest amount of cross-feed is stupid.

At least with the acoustic recordings i have, everything just starts to sound off and wrong so maybe i don't have the material to profit from this.

I don't know what material you listen to, but from everything you say it looks like you are cross-feeding too aggressively. If possible, try milder settings. Also, you probably need to just listen to cross-fed music more to get used to "more natural" spatial cues with headphones. Pay attention to how cross-feed affects listening fatigue and how "physical" bass sounds are.

 

[Vamp898]

It is supposed to simulate acoustic cross-feed when you listen to speakers (both ears hear sound from both speakers which reduces channel separation. With headphones this doesn't happens and for some people me included the resulting channel separation feel unnaturally large, but using cross-feed this problem can be eased or even fixed).


The best way to understand what cross-feed does is to use test signals (for example pink noise) and play it on left or right channel only. Then compare the sound cross-feed on and off. It should be clear how cross-feed reduces the unpleasantness of having sound on one ear only, especially at low frequencies. Nest step is to use cross-feed with recordings with very ping-pongy stereophony. Some recordings don't even "need" of benefit from cross-feed, because they have mixed to not contain large channel separation. Cross-feed doesn't work with binaural recordings. The more ping-pongy the more benefits there are.


Read above.


Yes, this is what happens more of less. Without cross-feed the drum is heard too far from the middle and cross-feed moves it closer to where it "should" be and where it is when you listen to the track on speakers. Your ears are used to unnatural spatial cues and now when cross-feed modifies them more natural, they feel "anemic" in comparison, but if you listen to longer your ears adjust to the more natural spatiality and you start to notice the benefits of reduced listening fatigue, more natural bass, more and ordered spatiality. That's what my ears do at least. I can't know how you experience things.

The level of cross-feed is important because recording differ with each other. Ping-pongy recordings need extreme cross-feed while some almost binaural recordings may benefit from only a very subtle cross-feed if at all. So, if cross-feed kills too much of the "room" then the level is too high. The trick is to have the correct balance and without cross-feed there is too much going on.


Again, the level of cross-feed is important. Also, when you put the crossfeed on, your hearing compares the sound to no cross-feed sound and it feel "dead" for a minute of so, but if you keep listening your ears adapt and the sound "widens" up again, only in a less fatiguing and more natural way. This is similar to speed blindness. Listening to music without cross-feed is like driving very fast and when you reduce your speed for a while it feels like your speed was almost zero.


Again, how does the crowd sound after a while when your ears have adapted?


I have never experienced this and I don't know why this would happen. For my ears proper cross-feed cleans up the spatiality and makes it easier to ear separate sounds in the music, so I'd say cross-feed makes music less mushy for me.


As I said above, the more ping-pongy recording, the more benefits can be had using cross-feed. Personally I get benefits with maybe 98 % of recordings. The rest 2 % are so binaural spatially, that using even the mildest amount of cross-feed is stupid.


I don't know what material you listen to, but from everything you say it looks like you are cross-feeding too aggressively. If possible, try milder settings. Also, you probably need to just listen to cross-fed music more to get used to "more natural" spatial cues with headphones. Pay attention to how cross-feed affects listening fatigue and how "physical" bass sounds are.

Ah that makes sense. As most music I have in my collection is mostly newer (and Japanese) music, its mixed with/for Headphones, that explains why, with my music collection, I don't experience an improvement

 

[bigshot]

Personally, I don’t care for crossfeed and for me it messes up channel separation, but some people like it. It doesn’t add spatial aspects to the sound. It just mushes stuff up.

 

[castleofargh]

Ah that makes sense. As most music I have in my collection is mostly newer (and Japanese) music, its mixed with/for Headphones, that explains why, with my music collection, I don't experience an improvement

There is also the fact that all the changes are somehow user dependent. So it's very common to try many crossfeed solutions and find some better than others for ourselves. Or perhaps none of the solutions will work because you'd need something more customized/advanced.
It's a little like binaural music in a sense. It comes from a good intention, but in the end most people would need something different for their own heads. leading to many who would rather not have it at all. Also the center can sound weird depending on implementation.
I said it often, but to me the main benefit was that I found music to be a little less tiring over long listening sessions with crossfeed turned ON.
But yeah the objective is to turn the 180°panning back to the 60° or so of speakers.

 

[71 dB]

Ah that makes sense. As most music I have in my collection is mostly newer (and Japanese) music, its mixed with/for Headphones, that explains why, with my music collection, I don't experience an improvement

Yes, modern pop music is often mixed in ways that is more suitable for headphones, but even they might benefit from subtle cross-feed in my experience. At least you tried cross-feed out.

A friendly warning: Your music diet might be too unilateral. You might want to expand your taste and if you do so you probably encounter recordings that benefit from cross-feed more than your modern Japanese headphone music.

 

[Vamp898]

Yes, modern pop music is often mixed in ways that is more suitable for headphones, but even they might benefit from subtle cross-feed in my experience. At least you tried cross-feed out.

A friendly warning: Your music diet might be too unilateral. You might want to expand your taste and if you do so you probably encounter recordings that benefit from cross-feed more than your modern Japanese headphone music.

There might be a misunderstanding.

With modern music i meant music that was recorded/mixed/mastered in the recent years, not pop music. Even though i am often surprised about how old some music actually is that i was sure came out only a few weeks ago and then suddenly is 10+ years old.

I listen to pretty much all kind of genres except for Rap/HipHop.

Even though there is Pop music like this in my collection like these



I also listen to almost all varieties of metal and rock



To several type orchestral recordings


And even Jazz



So for me its not a matter of genre but a matter of age of when the music was recorded/mixed/mastered.

Some songs from サカナクション sound like they are much older than they are though like slow motion


I also have several Artists from Germany, France, Spain and the US in my collection, but they are not the majority

 

[bigshot]

I think it depends on your personal tastes whether cross feed is necessary or even a benefit. For me, the only thing I might consider it for is early stereo like the first Beatles records in stereo where the instruments were isolated in a single channel. But even with that, I can listen to it without cross feed and not be particularly irritated.

It's likely that cross feed isn't necessary for you.

 

[71 dB]

There might be a misunderstanding.

With modern music i meant music that was recorded/mixed/mastered in the recent years, not pop music. Even though i am often surprised about how old some music actually is that i was sure came out only a few weeks ago and then suddenly is 10+ years old.

I listen to pretty much all kind of genres except for Rap/HipHop.

Even though there is Pop music like this in my collection like these



I also listen to almost all varieties of metal and rock



To several type orchestral recordings


And even Jazz



So for me its not a matter of genre but a matter of age of when the music was recorded/mixed/mastered.

Some songs from サカナクション sound like they are much older than they are though like slow motion


I also have several Artists from Germany, France, Spain and the US in my collection, but they are not the majority

I tested what cross-feed levels works best for me and got these results:

VIDEO 1: -10 dB
VIDEO 2: OFF (excellent channel separation for headphones!)
VIDEO 3: -8 dB
VIDEO 4: -6 dB
VIDEO 5: -8 dB
VIDEO 6: -10 dB
VIDEO 7: -10 dB
VIDEO 8: OFF (perfect channel separation for headphones! Even better than video 2!)

Overall these music samples have good channel separation on headphones and I don't blame you for not hearing massive benefits using cross-feed on these (for me there are some benefits except for videos 2 & 8 which should be listened without cross-feed). Video 4 has the most excessive spatiality for headphones and the -6 dB crossfeed level is moderate. Typically the music I listen to has much worse channel separation for headphones and I rarely encounter something as good as in videos 2 and especially 8.