[bigshot]

I keep getting attracted by people talking about DSPs that can simulate realistic soundstage with distance and maybe surround information. I think that this will be the next big leap forward for sound quality... spatiality. Dolby and Apple are working on it but it isn't quite there yet. I want to see if someone can recommend something that comes closer. It will be happening soon.

 

[jamesjames]

I keep getting attracted by people talking about DSPs that can simulate realistic soundstage with distance and maybe surround information. I think that this will be the next big leap forward for sound quality... spatiality. Dolby and Apple are working on it but it isn't quite there yet. I want to see if someone can recommend something that comes closer. It will be happening soon.

I see. Fair enough. But perhaps there's no need to continue to beat the drum on the evils (!) of crossfeed for those who actually turn up to the crossfeed topic to talk about crossfeed ...

 

[bigshot]

I don't say cross feed is evil. I say that everyone can use whatever coloration they want. Just don't tell other people the filter is doing things it isn't really doing. My only objection is to describing cross feed as creating a more dimensional soundstage or placing the sound in front of you like a speaker system. Those are the two things headphones can't do (yet). Sound with headphones is a line between the ears straight through the head. Secondary depth cues can fool you into thinking you hear distance, but it's never more than a couple of inches in front of your face.

Soundstage is good for flattening out excessive channel separation for headphones, since with speakers the room does that... in addition to adding natural dimensionality.

 

[jamesjames]

I don't say cross feed is evil. I say that everyone can use whatever coloration they want. Just don't tell other people the filter is doing things it isn't really doing. My only objection is to describing cross feed as creating a more dimensional soundstage or placing the sound in front of you like a speaker system. Those are the two things headphones can't do (yet). Sound with headphones is a line between the ears straight through the head. Secondary depth cues can fool you into thinking you hear distance, but it's never more than a couple of inches in front of your face.

Soundstage is good for flattening out excessive channel separation for headphones, since with speakers the room does that... in addition to adding natural dimensionality.

Yes, we've heard it all before ...

 

[jamesjames]

Yes, we've heard it all before ...

... and it really is quite tedious ...

 

[bigshot]

At least I'm making points and not telling other people to shut up.

 

[xxearvinxx]

I keep getting attracted by people talking about DSPs that can simulate realistic soundstage with distance and maybe surround information. I think that this will be the next big leap forward for sound quality... spatiality. Dolby and Apple are working on it but it isn't quite there yet. I want to see if someone can recommend something that comes closer. It will be happening soon.

I accidentally quoted without posting my reply.

 

[Steve999]

I like variable crossfeed, I find it works to different degrees with different recordings. I have had two of these for years, $159 on Amazon. I love them. I’d guess they measure like dreck and you get reverse-snob-appeal at best but they do exactly what I want without any degradation in sound that I care about and a nice strong quiet headphone output with the headphones I use and ergonomics are off the charts cool for my purposes. So you press the crossfeed button, and turn the crossfeed knob, it’s continuous from almost no crossfeed to very strong crossfeed, with a mono button if you just don’t want any stereo at all. You can use a USB driver via computer or there are xlr inputs and outputs, you can get adapters to get it to work with rca jacks. Multiple inputs & outputs. Nice big stepped volume knob. Two headphone outs. My own personal nirvana.

 

[xxearvinxx]

I keep getting attracted by people talking about DSPs that can simulate realistic soundstage with distance and maybe surround information. I think that this will be the next big leap forward for sound quality... spatiality. Dolby and Apple are working on it but it isn't quite there yet. I want to see if someone can recommend something that comes closer. It will be happening soon.

I agree that something DSP is going to be a large part of future of audio and headphones. I’m not sure how the purists will take this as it becomes even more mainstream. Analog is great, but just like everything else in our lives technology is continuing to make moves forward weather people like it or not.
Like the headphone jack being removed from phones. In 2016 Apple was one of the first and criticized heavily for it. Now 7 years later it’s all but excepted that a dongle or Bluetooth is just the way to go.

I’m excited to see what improvements come with DSP, crossovers and spacial audio in the future. Anything to improve the listing experience or change it in a meaningful way.
What I do worry about though is with these added features it will require processing and with that batteries.
What will happen if when the chips are no longer supported or can’t keep up with the new standards? What about when the battery gives out? Is your expensive new headphone just destined to end up in a landfill?

The benefit off most current audiophile headphones is that they are analog and should last for many years, if not forever, if taken care of.
Maybe it’ll be the DACS and amps that will continue to add new features to tweak sounds and utilize DSP. With more and more average consumers switching to battery powered Bluetooth headphones, I see it as just a matter of time before enough improvements are made with the tech that the brands we enjoy start to take this route as well.

 

[xxearvinxx]

I like variable crossfeed, I find it works to different degrees with different recordings I have had two of these for years, $149 on Amazon. I love them. I’d guess they measure like drek and you get reverse-snob-appeal at best but they do exactly what I want without any degradation in sound that I care about and a nice strong quiet headphone output with the headphones I use and ergonomics are off the charts cool for my purposes. So you press the crossfeed button, and turn the crossfeed knob, it’s continuous from no crossfeed to very strong crossfeed, with a mono button if you just don’t want any stereo auto all. You can use a USB driver via computer or there are xlr inputs and outputs, you can get adapters to get it to work with rca jacks. Multiple inputs & outputs. Nice big stepped volume knob. Two headphone outs. My own personal nirvana. FWIW.

This looks interesting. I’ll have to look more into it.
Can it work as an XLR switch as well. Like plug your DAC into the input and then switch between two amps or powered speakers with the output?

 

[Steve999]

This looks interesting. I’ll have to look more into it.
Can it work as an XLR switch as well. Like plug your DAC into the input and then switch between two amps or powered speakers with the output?

I think so! Though I think it has a perfectly good if pedestrian DAC built in.

Anyway. here’s the Berhringer product page https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0BK8 and here’s a thumbnail picture of the back:

 

[jamesjames]

At least I'm making points and not telling other people to shut up.

Hmmm - perhaps making the same (dismissive) point over and over again - not quite the same thing.

 

[bigshot]

You're dismissed.

 

[71 dB]

My only objection is when these filters are described as restoring spatial dimension to the sound. I’ve experienced that with speakers, but never with headphones. I was hoping Apple’s spatial audio would do that. I went out and bought their $500 cans with great expectations, but it was a bust. I’m still looking for a way to create real soundstage with headphones. There’s the Smyth Realiser, but it has compromises too and it’s very expensive. I’ll find what I’m looking for someday. It shouldn’t be impossible.

I can't speak for others, but I admit speaking too favorably about crossfeed spatiality when I came here. I said crossfeed makes heaphones have similar soundstage than speakers. I didn't expect people to think I mean speaker-like, but off course people misunderstand if possible. Similar in this context means off course that the properties of heapdphone spatiality move a little bit toward speakers. It doesn't take you to the Moon, but to ISS to give an analogy. You are not on Moon, but AT LEAST you are in "space." Crossfeed simulates using simple low-pass filter the acoustic crossfeed that happens in speaker listening. The frequency response of the "channel leakage" is a smooth approximation of what it is in "real life" due to HRTF: Strong at low frequencies and weak on high frequencies. Cross-feed also simulates the time delay of this "channel leakage", which is about 200-250 µs with typical speaker set up. The combination of these two aspect makes (because spatial hearing can be fooled) headphone sound to some people such as myself more natural, less fatiguing, more enjoyable and a bit closer to what speaker spatiality is.

Cross-feed DOES NOT make headphones sound like speakers! It makes headphones sound more natural, less fatiguing to more enjoyable to some people.

To make headphones sounds exactly like speakers you need methods so sophisticated they barely even exist! Your expectations have been unrealistic. Lower your expectations by 90 % and you may find something that meets the criteria. My expectations have always been realistic, in fact so low, that when I discovered crossfeed I was BLOWN AWAY by how much it increases my enjoyment of headphone sound. A simple electric circuit can do this? It felt like magic, but gradually I understood why it is possible. To me headphone sound without crossfeed is just wrong and perverse (unless the recording is mixed for headphones and has binaural-like spatiality).

 

[71 dB]

I don't say cross feed is evil. I say that everyone can use whatever coloration they want. Just don't tell other people the filter is doing things it isn't really doing. My only objection is to describing cross feed as creating a more dimensional soundstage or placing the sound in front of you like a speaker system. Those are the two things headphones can't do (yet). Sound with headphones is a line between the ears straight through the head. Secondary depth cues can fool you into thinking you hear distance, but it's never more than a couple of inches in front of your face.

Soundstage is good for flattening out excessive channel separation for headphones, since with speakers the room does that... in addition to adding natural dimensionality.

Yes, crossfeed makes the sound typically couple of inches in front of your face, depending on the recording. The point is that the sound is more enjoyable (for me at least) than without crossfeed (when it is at ears causing tickling sensation + bass feels fake + spatiality is broken + listeting fatigue). I don't mind so much that the sound isn't where it would be with speakers, because it is enjoyable.

Since even speaker spatiality is largely based on fooling spatial hearing, there is nothing wrong with being fooled by virtual spatial cues created by crossfeed. It is not placebo, because crossfeed really does alter the sound clearly audibly.