[xxearvinxx]

I’m torn on using crossfeed.
I am deaf in my left ear and have been since a very young age. That’s part of the reason I got into this hobby. I wanted to give my one good ear the best listening experience possible.

Crossfeed is great to mix channels, especially for songs that really utilize left and and right channels in the recordings.
I remember first noticing this about a decade ago when I was still in highschool listening to cheap Apple earbuds.
While on the bus to school, a song I had heard a hundred times came on my iPod. During a part of the song where there was normally a guitar solo, I only heard drums. I was shocked and confused. I’d heard this song so many times and that part was completely different this time.
Apparently I had accidentally switched the right and left earbuds without noticing when I put them in. That section of the song was recorded with drums in the left channel (my deaf ear) and guitar in the right channel. After switching them back I realized for the first time that my single sided deafness meant that I was not able to fully appreciate some songs with headphones.
Since then I switched my iPod, and now these days my iPhone to play in mono. Problem solved, sorta.

I use an RME ADI - 2 DAC and the crossfeed does a good job at fixing the channel separation for me, but not every song utilizes both channels independently.
From what I’ve noticed there seems to be a fuller sounding presentation from songs being played in mono that is more enjoyable.
Occasionally I’ll switch to using crossfeed to get a more stereo sound and better idea of what sounds were meant for which channel. Although I always end up switching back to mono because it just sounds better.

This preference is entirely due to my single sided deafness, but figured I’d add my experience to the conversation.

 

[bigshot]

If you’re deaf in one ear, mono would be best.

 

[xxearvinxx]

If you’re deaf in one ear, mono would be best.

I agree.
Still nice to mess with crossfeed on occasion and see what I’m missing though.

 

[bigshot]

You really aren’t missing a lot. A really good mono mix can sound great.

 

[xxearvinxx]

@bigshot Thanks for including the Amps Sound the Same article in your signature.
It was an interesting read.

 

[bigshot]

No problem. Glad it helped.

 

[jamesjames]

I’m torn on using crossfeed.
I am deaf in my left ear and have been since a very young age. That’s part of the reason I got into this hobby. I wanted to give my one good ear the best listening experience possible.

Crossfeed is great to mix channels, especially for songs that really utilize left and and right channels in the recordings.
I remember first noticing this about a decade ago when I was still in highschool listening to cheap Apple earbuds.
While on the bus to school, a song I had heard a hundred times came on my iPod. During a part of the song where there was normally a guitar solo, I only heard drums. I was shocked and confused. I’d heard this song so many times and that part was completely different this time.
Apparently I had accidentally switched the right and left earbuds without noticing when I put them in. That section of the song was recorded with drums in the left channel (my deaf ear) and guitar in the right channel. After switching them back I realized for the first time that my single sided deafness meant that I was not able to fully appreciate some songs with headphones.
Since then I switched my iPod, and now these days my iPhone to play in mono. Problem solved, sorta.

I use an RME ADI - 2 DAC and the crossfeed does a good job at fixing the channel separation for me, but not every song utilizes both channels independently.
From what I’ve noticed there seems to be a fuller sounding presentation from songs being played in mono that is more enjoyable.
Occasionally I’ll switch to using crossfeed to get a more stereo sound and better idea of what sounds were meant for which channel. Although I always end up switching back to mono because it just sounds better.

This preference is entirely due to my single sided deafness, but figured I’d add my experience to the conversation.

I've never understood why crossfeed isn't more popular. I can no longer listen without it. I think it unquestionably improves the result, by which I mean it tends to make acoustic music sound more natural - the performance space is apparently more three dimensional. It's also apparently at some greater distance from me - as at a recital or concert.

 

[bigshot]

Do you have a speaker system to compare the soundstage of crossfeed to? If so, does crossfeed approach that?

Apple recently released ear calibration for their spacial audio, and I read people talking about the spatiality and how things sound like they are all around them. But I have the multichannel blu-ray audio of the same recordings they're talking about and spatial audio is absolutely nothing like the presentation of a speaker system. It just pots the sound left and right as you turn your head and adds a little bit of a phase trick. I'm wondering if people know what multichannel music actually sounds like. Maybe it's the same with speaker soundstage.

 

[71 dB]

Do you have a speaker system to compare the soundstage of crossfeed to? If so, does crossfeed approach that?

Headphones + crossfeed doesn't give the type of soundstage you get with speakers, but at least for me it improves spatiality on headphones. Very large ILD makes sounds appear very near one ear and since crossfeed reduces ILD, those sounds move further away from ears, at least for me. This alone makes listening much more pleasant, because sounds very near one ear is very annoying and causes a kind of "tickling" sensation for me. Crossfeed also "organizes" the spatiality for me. To me headphone spatiality without crossfeed is "broken", like shattered all over the place because of the unnatural levels of spatial cues. My spatial hearing has hard time to make sense of it all and the result is a broken mess.

Crossfeed cleans up this mess for me and while the "virtual soundstage" is much smaller in size (about 3-10 times smaller than speaker soundstage depending on the recording), at least it has the same kind of "intactness" as speaker spatiality. Bass feels "real" and not "fake". Sharp transient sounds are placed accurately on one point in space instead of being scattered around my head. Listening to headphones without crossfeed is like watching TV with color, contract, sharpness etc. set to maximum*. It may look interesting and exciting at first, but the more you watch the more annoying and tiresome things look. All the detail you think you got by setting sharpness adjustment to max isn't real. It is fake detail. Then you adjust the TV picture to have natural picture. It may look less interesting at first, but it is comfortable to look at for longer times. To me crossfeed does something similar for headphones sound.

* If you watch your TV through an almost transparent membrane that reduces sharpness, color, etc. in the picture, these extreme settings may give you the best picture. The membrane here corresponds the room acoustics in audio.

Apple recently released ear calibration for their spacial audio, and I read people talking about the spatiality and how things sound like they are all around them. But I have the multichannel blu-ray audio of the same recordings they're talking about and spatial audio is absolutely nothing like the presentation of a speaker system. It just pots the sound left and right as you turn your head and adds a little bit of a phase trick. I'm wondering if people know what multichannel music actually sounds like. Maybe it's the same with speaker soundstage.

I know what multichannel music actually sounds like (I have had a 5-channel speaker system for 21 years), but I haven't tested Apple's spacial audio.

 

[71 dB]

I've never understood why crossfeed isn't more popular. I can no longer listen without it. I think it unquestionably improves the result, by which I mean it tends to make acoustic music sound more natural - the performance space is apparently more three dimensional. It's also apparently at some greater distance from me - as at a recital or concert.

When I came to this board years ago, I thought ALL people would prefer to use crossfeed if only informed about it, but I hit a brickwall. My assumption seems to have been wrong. A lot of people who have tried crossfeed don't hear any benefits or even find the result worse. This made me really confused, because I thought I had figured this out an had the science of spatial hearing to back me.

Lately I have started to think that maybe we who prefer crossfeed are different from other people. The way we experience spatiality might differ from other people. Autistic people are typically very sensitive to certain sensory stimulus. For a "normal" person walking on bare foot on wet grass isn't a big thing, but for someone with autism the wet grass slapping against bare feet and legs may cause sensory overload and make the experience extreme. Maybe people who like crossfeed have similar issues with excessive spatial cues?

I am pretty sure I have aspergers. I am sensitive to certain things such as cold water on my skin. What if this is the reason I love crossfeed? Do you have aspergers or autism?

 

[bigshot]

People describe crossfeed (and spatial audio) using terms that apply to speaker soundstage… ie: “the sound is a distance in front of me”. I’m curious if some people experience more spatial sound than others, or if it’s placebo effect (or just incorrect use of terms).

 

[71 dB]

People describe crossfeed (and spatial audio) using terms that apply to speaker soundstage… ie: “the sound is a distance in front of me”. I’m curious if some people experience more spatial sound than others, or if it’s placebo effect (or just incorrect use of terms).

I experience distance even without crossfeed, but it is just messy compared to crossfeed. Also, as I wrote, crossfeed "removes" sounds at my ear and moves the on my shoulders. For me in headphone virtual soundstage not everything is at a larger distance. A lot of the sound remain near head, but the "space" where the sounds are has substantial size. I suppose my spatial hearing detects things like reverberation in the sound and concludes the sounds must happen in a space of vast size, much bigger than a helmet. Without crossfeed the same reverberation contains excessive spatiality and it is difficult to know what it means spatially (fake reverberation? What?)

Terminology is what it is. We have to live with the fact that nobody has bothered to create good terminology for headphone spatiality. I have suggested some terms, but other people tend to reject them so here we are, everyone using their own favorite terms...

Stereophonic sound is based on tricking our spatial hearing. How else can you create soundstages using just two speakers? How can you make sounds appear between the speakers when there is nothing to radiate sound? By tricking spatial hearing. What we hear and experience is not the same as physical reality. So, spatial hearing can be tricked and to me this works also with headphones, just a little differently because the placement of the transducers is so different and there isn't a room. Whether we should call it a placebo effect is a philosophic question. If it is then I can say crossfeed helps me experience the placebo effect that I like.

 

[jamesjames]

In answer to bigshot, I've used speaker systems for many years, have recorded music, and have been recorded. But that's irrelevant. I put it badly above perhaps. Perhaps it would have been better to say I've never understood why there isn't more interest in crossfeed on this website (and particularly the 'Crossfeed' topic!). Indeed, my impression is that certain contributors here seem to suggest it's a waste of time. I would simply observe that many of the most serious designers - dCS, Simaudio, Weiss, iFi, etc, etc - continue to invest heavily in refining their crossfeed products. I don't think they're doing that because no one's interested. My experience is that many agree that the artificial or 'super' stereo effect inherent in headphone listening can be ameliorated to some extent by good crossfeed implementation. Speaking for myself, good analogue crossfeed transforms headphone listening from one that's fascinating but quite unnatural, to the most natural playback experience possible. All forms of playback involve some practical compromises. Crossfeed obviously makes a big difference to me. And I know it makes a big difference to others. So, as I've said, I don't understand the rather negative treatment it seems to receive here.

 

[bigshot]

That’s fine. Everyone is free to add any coloration they want. I use DSPs on occasion myself. My only objection is when these filters are described as restoring spatial dimension to the sound. I’ve experienced that with speakers, but never with headphones. I was hoping Apple’s spatial audio would do that. I went out and bought their $500 cans with great expectations, but it was a bust. I’m still looking for a way to create real soundstage with headphones. There’s the Smyth Realiser, but it has compromises too and it’s very expensive. I’ll find what I’m looking for someday. It shouldn’t be impossible.

 

[jamesjames]

That’s fine. Everyone is free to add any coloration they want. I use DSPs on occasion myself. My only objection is when these filters are described as restoring spatial dimension to the sound. I’ve experienced that with speakers, but never with headphones. I was hoping Apple’s spatial audio would do that. I went out and bought their $500 cans with great expectations, but it was a bust. I’m still looking for a way to create real soundstage with headphones. There’s the Smyth Realiser, but it has compromises too and it’s very expensive. I’ll find what I’m looking for someday. It shouldn’t be impossible.

So why do you continue visit this topic? You clearly don't find crossfeed worthwhile. I guess your contributions don't help create a welcoming environment for those who do.