[Koei]

There's clearly a difference in how an engineer develops a product. This is with everything in life.

Koei, you're clearly a specifications man. If you walked into your local headphone shop or hifi shop you should put your ears to the test.

Some love Bryston and some love Mcintosh amplifiers. Both worlds are different in how they present music. Maybe your average inexpensive Schiit Gumby will not sound that much different from other 1000+ dollar dacs so many will be greatly appreciative. How is it that there is such a following for the Schiit Yggy...... I guess the Gumby is on par LOL!! Perhaps it's deliberately engineered or just how things all came together upon assembly of components.

The term "Musical" or "Analytical" is commonly thrown around in the audio world. If it was so simple to have cheap dacs that are on par with substantially more expensive that would be the ideal world. There are far too many "measurbators" analyzing graphs and specs but these are not the end all be all when waveforms hits your eardrums. As this is a hobby and wallet reducing fun pastime auditioning gear can be an eye opener. Vince Bruzzese the founder of Totem acoustic said to me speakers are like comparing a lamborghini and Bentley. Some speaker takes you for a wild ride or some just is easy listening. This goes along the lines of the Totem Metal vs Totem Wind. Speakers/headphones is only a piece of the puzzle.

I urge you to join geeky audio groups or visit all of your local shops and shows. If you play with high tier audio gear you can really hear a difference in minute changes. Odd how even my 13yrs old can detect the differences in swapping power cords on my amplifier. The indication of the change in warmth, sound stage, rhythm and pace, realism.... were all from her vocabulary. This is swapping from a $1200.00 power cable vs a $560 dollar Power cord. I hope you can hear a difference between hyper detailed presence of vocal and sound stage presence vs Analog vinyl/Tube with holographic realism. If you have not auditioned such gear I urge you since you are missing the point of the hobby of finding personal audio nirvana. So far all of my family and friends A/B testing prefers the holographic sound while listening to Blues Alley - Eva Cassidy or even Stevie Ray Vaughan - Tin Pan Alley. Their jaws drop in the difference with Tin Pan Alley with my Tube setup. This is coming from non geeky audiofiles............

I use my Tube gear as well as solid state. I'm currently debating on buying a Tube amp to mix things up. At this moment my Source goes from either a tube dac or Solid state feeding a preamp/amp. At this moment my Mytek Liberty with Astron linear PS cannot even match the musical qualities of my onboard DAC found in my preamp. However both units are using the same Sabre chip but it's all about how the electronic engineering puts it together. It's either a blessing or unfortunate to not be able to hear a difference. If you cannot hear a difference those folks should be happy as they can settle for a Gumby dac and think it's on par with higher tier products out there.

Even using "reference" affordable $2200 Benchmark Dac3 would change it's characteristics using different pre amps or headphone amps/integrated amps. Reason is..we listen to the collective combination of gear. The Dac is strictly the source. It doesn't appear that you own the AHB2 amp. What you will find is there's a noticeable difference in how the designer wants to create a sound signature. Listen to the tonality of different amps and you'll hear how music is presented. More filter caps and current delivery all combines a different product. The A21+ is spec'd for a swing of 1.5ohms so it can handle a deep sweep in the music. There are so many varieties of amps to buy. This is where headfi is the most cheapest but versatile audio hobby as it's all small and portable and usually cheaper in many cases.

Dac selection cannot be based on graphs and spec sheets. This also applies to speakers and amplification. There is a difference and if you cannot hear it, I suggest buying the cheapest possible gear that suites your happiness. Warning.....if you empty your wallet in higher transparent gear you will hear every change and tweak you do to your system. This is where a Benchmark Dac3 will soon be "great" to "OK" when comparing other dacs on the market. Biggest change is either headphone swap or for 2 channel the speakers, speaker positioning, room conditioning, room acoustics.

This topic is not so cut and dry easy.....

I didn't even need to read the rest of your post. I'm a measurements man. At a certain point there is no difference in amplifiers and DACs if both are developed to be transparent. You can determine this by doing ABX tests and measurements to confirm. Your ears are by far the most unreliable way to get Hifi, they are great to get Myfi.

There is no sound difference between McIntosh or Bryston. Nothing. At my local hifi shop we did an ABX test using 2 different mono blocks on Kef 207/2's. Some McIntosh class-A blocks weighing in at 50kg a piece or something stupid like that and some DIY Hypex NCore NC400's. We made sure they were level matched (we used 2 identical pre-amps fed from the same DAC). We had about 15 people present and nobody could reliably pick out which amplifier was playing, all results were within the realm of random guesses. That was a pretty fun test, just as revealing at the time we ABX'd 6mm2 pure copper speaker cables to some 1500 euro cables. Same ABX result, nobody could reliably pick out which cables were used. Its a shop run by some real enthusiasts that just want to get you the best sound. You think this would hit their bottom line, but it actually doesn't because people just end up spending more on speakers. And to be fair they sell different speaker cables, but only for the better build quality. Its refreshing to see an honest hifi dealer. Maybe it is because has a background in Pro Audio.

As to your comments about the AHB2: if you actually know Benchmark's mission statement you realise how silly your argument about its tonality. Yes, it might sound different to other amps. But NOT because Benchmark tuned the sound to their liking. No, its because:

• They made it transparent as possible.
• The other amps creator tuned their sound
• Your ears are fooling you.

Amplifier and DAC choices can be made purely based on measurements. It really is that simple. And you can stop trolling now about hearing any difference, time and time again ABX tests have shown that to be nonsense and if you do hear difference I suggest you go to a doctor because you might be the next step in human evolution. You could get the guy a nobel price in biology, because you would be the first human matching an Audio Precision audio analyzer accuracy.

 

[AlanU]

I didn't even need to read the rest of your post. I'm a measurements man. At a certain point there is no difference in amplifiers and DACs if both are developed to be transparent. You can determine this by doing ABX tests and measurements to confirm. Your ears are by far the most unreliable way to get Hifi, they are great to get Myfi.

There is no sound difference between McIntosh or Bryston. Nothing. At my local hifi shop we did an ABX test using 2 different mono blocks on Kef 207/2's. Some McIntosh class-A blocks weighing in at 50kg a piece or something stupid like that and some DIY Hypex NCore NC400's. We made sure they were level matched (we used 2 identical pre-amps fed from the same DAC). We had about 15 people present and nobody could reliably pick out which amplifier was playing, all results were within the realm of random guesses. That was a pretty fun test, just as revealing at the time we ABX'd 6mm2 pure copper speaker cables to some 1500 euro cables. Same ABX result, nobody could reliably pick out which cables were used. Its a shop run by some real enthusiasts that just want to get you the best sound. You think this would hit their bottom line, but it actually doesn't because people just end up spending more on speakers. And to be fair they sell different speaker cables, but only for the better build quality. Its refreshing to see an honest hifi dealer. Maybe it is because has a background in Pro Audio.

As to your comments about the AHB2: if you actually know Benchmark's mission statement you realise how silly your argument about its tonality. Yes, it might sound different to other amps. But NOT because Benchmark tuned the sound to their liking. No, its because:

• They made it transparent as possible.
• The other amps creator tuned their sound
• Your ears are fooling you.

Amplifier and DAC choices can be made purely based on measurements. It really is that simple. And you can stop trolling now about hearing any difference, time and time again ABX tests have shown that to be nonsense and if you do hear difference I suggest you go to a doctor because you might be the next step in human evolution. You could get the guy a nobel price in biology, because you would be the first human matching an Audio Precision audio analyzer accuracy.

I suppose your suggestion for ideal audio nirvana is to buy a Benchmark dac3 and AHB2 amp. However you've stated that many DAC's sound identical.

Next time you go to your local honest hifi shop and in their sound conditioned room change the power conditioning and PC. Power cables is something I'll admit is quite different when it comes to A/B comparison tests.

A/B tests I've heard very little to no differences comparing top tier $$ Harmonic Technology speaker cables to my diy Olflex "control cable" speaker wires with vampire banana's and cosmetic techflex cover, Kimber Kable, Morrow Audio to Audio Sensibility Statement speaker wires.

This is the first I've heard of that Bryston and Mcintosh sound identical. You might as well throw in Emotiva as "on par" equipment.

Put your ears to the test in home within your own environment. You may notice how a foreign environment sounds different and unfamiliar to your home. Swapping gear in the comfort of your own familiar environment is still rather different.

So what I've now learned from this is that going to any local shop I can buy a budget Cambridge Audio 2 channel amp (Being fancy as it will have a Toroidal transformer) and a Benchmark Dac3 and I'll have an equivalence of a person spending on a more expensive DAC using the same amplification. Trolling shall take a reversal here as this is now becoming truly entertaining. There is truth about "synergy" or "matching" that cannot be determined by analyzing graphs from a dac to preamp to amp to speaker/headphone. This is much more complicated that that......

One's perception of musicality is different from another. Dacs all sounding the same is fine for the ones not willing to spend the money on higher tier gear. There is a logical true point of diminishing returns but to say DACS sound the same is unrealistic. The human ear is known to be one of the most complicated wonders. I know so few people ever to proclaim that dacs sound the same.

Appreciate what you own and be happy. No need for personal attacks on this type of conversation. No concern what brand or gear ownership you have as this a wasteful, wallet thinning hobby that creates something called happiness..... I care little of what people own as it's not my concern. In reality this topic is a mini fire starter but ultimately a reader must determine their wallet/budget and most importantly factor in their real life audition rather than taking others as fact. I cannot tell my 13yrs old daughter how she perceives sounds with her ears but oddly it matched identical results from my other family/friends and geek hifi friends with not influence from me. This is a waste of time as it's meant to be a hobby time waster with enjoyment.

 

[Koei]

Yes, lets put an end to this argument. Its very tiring to argue with somebody who doesn't understand even the most basic concepts of psycho acoustics and acoustic transparency. There is really no point, its like trying to convince a brick to stop being a brick.

 

[AlanU]

Yes, lets put an end to this argument. Its very tiring to argue with somebody who doesn't understand even the most basic concepts of psycho acoustics and acoustic transparency. There is really no point, its like trying to convince a brick to stop being a brick.

Yes...thank you for your last dig.....

On my daughter's behalf, her interpretation and perception it's her reality while swapping power cords. It correlates with mine as well as other "blind tested" friends and family members. My personally conducted test in my home was 100% conclusive within my environment. Nothing to do with psycho acoustics or "acoustic transparency" (Acoustic transparency is a concept related to maintaining acoustic fidelity as sound passes through the screen material.)....man that cracks me up LOL!!!!!!!!

Monetary expenditures plays a role in reaching to the point of diminishing returns. This is a reality based on budget. Arrogance and stating non exploration is not going to help any participant on this thread. Until someone basis personal experience in their own a/b comparison the comments on your ABX is moot as well as blogs on the web.

A word of advice to anyone reading this thread is to explore with your own personal ears. Ultimately your ears are the only one's to please. If Vacuum tubes, vinyl please you this will be due to shear enjoyment and your perception of music is all about the joys of music and not about internet debate.

If you wish to discuss graphs and analysis I think there's another section on Headfi called "Sound Science". Measurebators can discuss and miss the point of what music is all about.

 

[castleofargh]

All we need is answer a few questions:
- Are we looking for fidelity?
If so, graphs and measurements not only can be used to pick a DAC, they have to. Fidelity is measured against a reference.

- Are we maybe looking for some idea of musicality and entertainment. What we like to use more?
If so, each of us goes and picks whatever he likes best, for whatever reason. Who cares if it's objective, subjective, about sound or about the paint on the DAC reminding us of a toy we loved when we were 3? The choice is mostly subjective and arbitrary anyway, someone else may make a different one and that is just fine. Let's not bring in fake notions of righteousness into personal taste, this is music enjoyment not the Fashion Week.

- Are we trying to check if we can tell the difference between a few specific DACs by ears?
In that case, we must put the idea to the test. That means a blind test and making sure the DACs output the same levels into the amp before running the test(so that we don't mistake volume differences with more interesting audible differences). Any other method probably doesn't qualify as a listening test. The legendary anecdote of the wife in the kitchen hardly passes as a controlled experiment. Same with 13 year old kids trying to demonstrate how they can pick up on their parents' biases. Both are interesting psychological anecdotes. Both can make non audiophiles laugh at dinner about how silly our hobby is, but they are not, IMO, controlled experiments demonstrating hearing abilities.

Different questions require different approaches. Just pick whatever question you guys wish to answer and stick with the method that can properly help answer it. It's not that hard or controversial. Just

it would be bad.

I wont start a cable debate. I simply allowed my 13yrs old daughter sit in front of my 2 channel. Swapped 2 power cords and let her populate the words in what she hears. I had zero influence in her descriptions. Her description was spot on.

Maybe you're correct about that anecdote. Maybe you just recreated a less impressive version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans
Wrongly thinking there are no extra influences when there are, has been the running gag of this hobby for decades.

 

[439598]

its not hard to blind test the DACs, power cables, whatever. and if you manage to pass it (assuming test isnt flawed) then that overrules any measurement... be an objective subjectivist

 

[AlanU]

All we need is answer a few questions:
Same with 13 year old kids trying to demonstrate how they can pick up on their parents' biases. Both are interesting psychological anecdotes. Both can make non audiophiles laugh at dinner about how silly our hobby is, but they are not, IMO, controlled experiments demonstrating hearing abilities.

Different questions require different approaches. Just pick whatever question you guys wish to answer and stick with the method that can properly help answer it. It's not that hard or controversial. Just

it would be bad.



Maybe you're correct about that anecdote. Maybe you just recreated a less impressive version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans
Wrongly thinking there are no extra influences when there are, has been the running gag of this hobby for decades.

Indeed we can all have enjoyment in audio.

One of my close friends had a great heated discussion with me. In this case he was rather vocal and determined to prove me wrong. He laughed at me profusely as I noted noticeable changes in sound signature.

Blind folded literally. Sat absolutely stationary with ear position never moving. He chose his tracks and explicit details on certain parts of the music track.
I did changes from directly plugging into the wall to going through power conditioning to swapping power cables. Placebo attempts to "pretend" to make changes when not.

No influence on my part as he was adamant to prove my insanity. He now retracted and ate his words in complete disbelief.

My 13 yrs old is rather musical as she's been taking piano for many many years. As I changed from one PC to another I let her explain in her own words what changes she hears or if any. I can see people trying to dismantle such tests as valid proof. She has perfect hearing, no tinnitus and a fine tuned musically trained ear.

People can believe or not. My test has no agenda to prove to anyone. My personal tests conducted in my home was purely fun "presumed facts" that I do not expect a "science lover" to believe..nor do I expect or concerned if one believes me.

As I mentioned earlier. Human hearing is a complicated wonder. Perception is one's reality. I will not touch the discussion of religion. My point is we believe what we believe based on our senses.

The simplistic setup of a headphone rig will now be simple for me

Buy a benchmark dac3, decent amplifier and buy a variety of coloured sound signature headphones.

This is where IMO the discussion of reference is meaningless to many. Why? hypothetically you have a perfect source, "reference" DAC, "reference" amplification and a tranducer aka headphone/speaker. The latter part of the chain can vary drastically. Pick your massive selection from everyday Senn to Stax ranging from 150 bucks to 6500USD. There is so little emphasis for hifi guys running out buying Studio "neutral" monitors from Yamaha (or other known Studio non coloured monitors) to play music in their Mansions to modest homes.

I know few people striving for absolute reference neutral sound signature attempting to achieve absolute real life "live" music from a system. One would dream an average dac can present that real life "coloured" presentation with an average amplifier and introductory pair of speakers. Going to a live concert you simply do not get hyper detail with pin point accuracy of the placement of instruments. Test a Concero HD 850USD sabre dac and compare that to a Benchmark Dac3. The digititis from the Concero HD would fatigue your ears so quickly and the incredibly artificial sound stage would boggle your mind. The Sabre dac / Mytek Brooklyn/Liberty sounds totally different and going with lithium battery 12 volt feed or linear amp is a drastic change in SQ too!! According to Koei it's should all sound virtually the same (perhaps I'm mistaken if that's coming from his own abx test or his perception).

I think it's wise for anyone to audition/test/borrow gear for their personal enjoyment.

 

[439598]

time and time again ABX tests have shown that to be nonsense and if you do hear difference I suggest you go to a doctor because you might be the next step in human evolution.

What ABX tests are you talking about? provide links.