There's Something About Ultrasone…

[Dexdexter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller Not sure and better contact them, but IIRC the 750 has some openings inside the front panel of the cups (some big holes), that fire some of the back sound of the driver to the inside of the cup, and are covered by some material that do not block them completelly (working like an apperiodic port in an speaker or so) while in the 2500 the front panels are completelly covered....I'm not 100% sure, and I could be wrong so please again ask them but I think that one size fit all, is not posible, but asking will not harm...and if you get that answer just gimme a shout that could be my solution as well, and it is simpler than what you think, IIRC is only a matter of getting the ring from the 750 that covers the vents on the back of the cup, piece of cake, and if it is possible, of course...

Thanks for that, SK, so it is a little more complex than I had anticipated. Some photos from your earlier thread indicate a clear difference between the 750 and the 2500:

So in order to better replicate the behavior of the 750s, the exterior vents would need to be covered and the 5 black circles covering the inner baffles would need to be removed.

Probably more trouble than it's worth.

Oh well, now to decide between the 750 and 2500.

Decisions, decisions...

Cheers, Dex

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer I have to agree. As an amp, it is slightly warm, but the internal DAC tips the scale a bit further toward warmth.

Definitely things and concepts change in head-fi overtime, that was not what I read here a year ago, not what I heard of that jack, and not how others feel about it, but it is true that how people consider the Grace is not the main point in this thread, so I will not even bother to try to find some more written evidence of the opposite, given that I have heard it as well, nad have my own opinion, based in my own experience...

But that is curious how basic concepts, as the relevance of cables, power cords, sound of given material/metals, the use of power conditioners, burn in, aftermarket cables, and the called "upgrades" in some circuits had changed also in head-fi overtime, I remember while if you state something against them or maybe that if you do not hear a difference, you were stoned alive here, now with the more number of technical members here, those concepts seems to be really subjective...weird eh???

 

[ralphp@optonline]

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Originally Posted by Dexdexter Hello! I feel that the time has come for me to step up from my Sennheiser HD590s to something a little more interesting. Reading through the threads here, I have become quite captivated by the concepts behind the Ultrasone range. Their S-Logic decentralized driver positioning seems like just what I'm looking for. Since my Hi-Fi loudspeakers are quasi-omnidirectional, I am already quite accustomed to a broadened soundstage and a more diffuse presentation as opposed to standard directional speakers. So the question for me is: which one to choose? The consensus seems to be that the 750s are slightly more forward than the 2500s with regard to the treble. And that the HiFi 2200s are a little softer and more forgiving than their PROline counterparts with the stiffer titanium drivers. From everything I've seen, the 750 and 2500 are entirely identical except that the 750 is closed. Are the ear pads different on the 750 also, in order to complete the seal? The reason I'm interested in this aspect is that I've been thinking about the possibility of purchasing the 2500s and then modifying them to accept a removable cover for the rear of the cups on either side. Theoretically, then, I could enjoy the sonic advantages of open cans when I'm alone in a room, but also retain the option of closing them off when Mrs. Dex is around trying to watch the telly. The best of both worlds, or a fool's errand? And then there are the HiFi 2200 ULEs with their retrotastic, chocolicious good looks, not to mention being significantly less expensive. I could try out the same mod if I were to choose these beauties. So I'm looking for any thoughts or impressions from folks who have heard or own any of these Ultrasones. Thanks in advance! Cheers, Dex

I'll try to answer some of your basic questions, which seems to be something that everyone else has failed to do.

Are the ear pads different?

No, they are exactly the same and come off just as easily on the 2500 asw they do on the 750. BTW, this is a great feature which I would like to see on more high end headphones. So I guess the ear pads have nothing to do with the seal.

The difference in the sound between the 750s and the 2500s is that the 750s have greater bass energy and as such play louder, or at least seem to be playing louder, for a given volume setting. Everything else sounds about the same.

As for your idea of constructing some kind removeable shell or cover to place over the ear cup of the 2500s to make them into closed headphones, I would say that, yes, it's a fool's errand. Closed headphones are slightly more than just open headphones with covers on them and to think otherwise is foolish.

As for the soundstaging of the Ultrasones, they do give you a better sense of depth than most other full sized headphones. At times and with the right recording the soundstage does appear to be coming from the front of your head rather than directly between your ears.

Now for the rant part.

My Ultrasone Proline 750s reproduce bass which is the closest sounding to that of a good speaker that I have heard in a headphone costing under several thousands of dollars and yet all people seem to say about them after the standard 30 to 60 second audition is that they sound muddy. Guess what, they don't sound muddy, that's not mud, that's the bottom end that most other headphones leave out.

Let's put it another way. Several different audio magazines rate loudspeakers and have the nerve to give a special class A rating to speakers with limited low frequency output. There's no special class A rating for speakers with limited midrange or high frequency output. So why is this lack of proper bass reproduction given such special treatment?

I feel that Ultrasone has clearly shown that deep, clearly defined, well reproduced bass is possible in competitively priced headphones and instead of praise all they get is negitive feedback. Sure, the Ultrasones are not the final word on overall flat frequency response and smoothness of sound but they are moving in the right direction.

 

[jpelg]

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Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline that's not mud, that's the bottom end that most other headphones leave out.

LOL

!

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline I'll try to answer some of your basic questions, which seems to be something that everyone else has failed to do. Are the ear pads different? No, they are exactly the same and come off just as easily on the 2500 asw they do on the 750. BTW, this is a great feature which I would like to see on more high end headphones. So I guess the ear pads have nothing to do with the seal.

Are you sure they are the same in this two models? I'm asking because recently I asked Evan about that, and he told me that there are differences in the pads between the different models of headphones they have (not sure in the particular case of the 750 and the 2500) and that those has an impact on the sound, for example the ones used in the 2500, have some rough surface in the bottom like a dented material, if you touch them from the black cloth to the inside of the pad, while the others are just flat...


Quote:

Now for the rant part. My Ultrasone Proline 750s reproduce bass which is the closest sounding to that of a good speaker that I have heard in a headphone costing under several thousands of dollars and yet all people seem to say about them after the standard 30 to 60 second audition is that they sound muddy. Guess what, they don't sound muddy, that's not mud, that's the bottom end that most other headphones leave out.

Not in vane they are now widely used in the pro industry, specially in recording studios....I was trying to make people believe the same for a while, and thanks God that I'm not alone on that assumption, BTW Aaron believes the same as well, the low end of the PROLines is simply amazing...And the rest is very good as well...

Quote:

Let's put it another way. Several different audio magazines rate loudspeakers and have the nerve to give a special class A rating to speakers with limited low frequency output. There's no special class A rating for speakers with limited midrange or high frequency output. So why is this lack of proper bass reproduction given such special treatment?

I think that is just because they believe that you will compensate the lack of bass with a good sub-woofer later on, and having the rest OK, up to certain point will make a difference, otherwise that makes no sense to me neither, a speaker with a limited spectrum, is just that, a limited speaker and period...

Quote:

I feel that Ultrasone has clearly shown that deep, clearly defined, well reproduced bass is possible in competitively priced headphones and instead of praise all they get is negitive feedback. Sure, the Ultrasones are not the final word on overall flat frequency response and smoothness of sound but they are moving in the right direction.

Another thing that sounds amazing there, and that not all headphones do well is the sound of the drums, the kick drum, the sound of the stick on the snare drum, that reverberation, or resonance of the box, or echo, or whatever you call it, of the drums sound incredibly realistic on the PROLines....

 

[ralphp@optonline]

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I think that is just because they believe that you will compensate the lack of bass with a good sub-woofer later on, and having the rest OK, up to certain point will make a difference, otherwise that makes no sense to me neither, a speaker with a limited spectrum, is just that, a limited speaker and period...

That may be true but with a speaker lacking midrange one could buy a midrange driver later or buy a tweeter later. No, it is as you stated, a speaker with a limited frequency spectrum is just that: limited and does not deserve a class A rating, period. Why do people fear proper bass response so much?

You may be right about the ear pad being at least a little bit different. I just checked the Ultrasone site and the replacement ear pads for the 750 and the 2500 are listed seperately and priced differently, so there must be at least some differences between them but they do look pretty much the same to the naked eye.

It would appear that if people are going to continue to base their judgements on either things they read on forum posts or on 60 second auditions then Ultrasones will not get a fair shake. However, if and when they decide to really sit down and listen properly to the Ultrasones, their sound will win them over.

 

[Sovkiller]

I have a pair of Edition 9's ordered, and as soon as I received them, hopefully by December, according to them, I will try to arrange someone in head-fi, that people trust enough, to review the PROLines I have here. This way people will feel more confident, but till now all you will see, will be those opinions based in 60 seconds auditions, as they have no other way of listen them...and definitelly you need time to get used to them, and "adjust your internal clock" to them...
What is funny is that once you get them, and not sure if that happen to you, later on and even if you spend a lot of time with other heapdhones, once you listen them again, you do not feel the same impact as the first time, and accept them really quick again...

 

[jpelg]

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Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline with a speaker lacking midrange one could buy a midrange driver later or buy a tweeter later.

When was the last time you bought a pair of speakers and replaced the midrange driver to tweak the sound?

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Originally Posted by sovkiller but till now all you will see, will be those opinions based in 60 seconds auditions, as they have no other way of listen them...

Interesting. And how much time have you had the Sony R10's, that you feel are the end-all-be-all headphone, in your house? Or was it just a brief listening session at one or maybe two meets at most? Is that long enough to make your claim?

I don't get it, Al. You complain that no one listens to Ultrasone headphones or Rudi's amps at meets, and then when someone does, you completely invalidate the opinion. You can't have it both ways.

 

[jpelg]

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Originally Posted by Sovkiller I have a pair of Edition 9's ordered.

You actually bought a pair?

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally Posted by jpelg When was the last time you bought a pair of speakers and replaced the midrange driver to tweak the sound? Interesting. And how much time have you had the Sony R10's, that you feel are the end-all-be-all headphone, in your house? Or was it just a brief listening session at one or maybe two meets at most? Is that long enough to make your claim? I don't get it, Al. You complain that no one listens to Ultrasone headphones or Rudi's amps at meets, and then when someone does, you completely invalidate the opinion. You can't have it both ways.

Well to make the answer short, and avoid any further arguments, I don't care if anybody listens the Ultrasones in meetings or not (indeed they have been in two or three meetings only) and if you or someone do not want to listen them, that is up to you/them, I did, liked them, and it is true that at the beginning it sounded a little weird to me, given the new presentation but the bass extension and quality in that dpt, got my heart, right now I'm one of the happy owners of them....About the Rudi amps the same, if someone ignore them, that is up to them, who is missing a wonderful sounding amp??? Not me....And OTOH I will try to do my best to send while possible amps to future meetings, but unfortunately I can't make people listen them ...

Now the second part, the Ultrasones given that they have a peculiar design, and the completely new S-logic technology, you need a lot of time, you physically must have time with them to get used to that new presentation, it is not a headphone that you put in your head and bingo, will do it for you.....That happen to me, to Wayne, Aaron, and to all the ones who had listen them, and own them, and like them or not ... The Ultrasones is not the same case as the R-10, or the HD650, K701, PS-1 CD3K, etc....those are regular headphones with the usual presentation we are used to, we do not require that much time to adjust our brain for them, as they do not have the S-logic technology...

BTW the R-10 are the end-all-be-all headphones among the ones I have heard (and I know that you will not like this part, and do not agree on that, but I don't care...

...) but coming from the CD3000 which IMO sounds closer to it than any other I have heard, I know what to look for, and what I'm missing from, nothing more, nothing less...The R-10 has a magical sound that catch you from the first listen...BTW I can bet with you, that I have heard the R-10 far more time, than the time you have spend trying to understand the Ultrasone technology, and sound ....

And yes, I have a pair of Edition 9 coming my way....

And I will end this discussion here, and I encourage you to do the same, we are derailing this thread into a pissing match with no reason, and I do not like to be part of it anymore...This thread was opened asking, and in order to receive inputs about the Ultrasones headphones, technology, differences etc...and noting else...

Believe what you want, like, and be happy, enjoying what you feel is the Holy Grail for you, man......peace !!!

 

[jpelg]

I don't think this is derailing the OP's thread at all. He asked opinions about Ultrasone models. I posted my most recent impressions, of which I qualified them with details, and with what I consider a fair & unbiased test bed.

You, on the other hand, need to piss on any negative Ultrasone impression posted on this board, citing special needs, and unfavorable conditions at every turn.

I simply point out your inconsistencies that don't make sense (imo). This is important because from that, other readers can decide which opinion more closely resembles their own and to which they can more closely align, since they aren't hearing the headphones themselves. Otherwise, why post on this or any other board at all if you are just going to tell people that other opinions are worthless?

I wouldn't have posted more than what I had already written in the NY meet thread, but the OP asked specifically here.

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally Posted by jpelg I don't think this is derailing the OP's thread at all. He asked opinions about Ultrasone models. I posted my most recent impressions, of which I qualified them with details, and with what I consider a fair & unbiased test bed. You, on the other hand, need to piss on any negative Ultrasone impression posted on this board, citing special needs, and unfavorable conditions at every turn. I simply point out your inconsistencies that don't make sense (imo). This is important because from that, other readers can decide which opinion more closely resembles their own and to which they can more closely align, since they aren't hearing the headphones themselves. Otherwise, why post on this or any other board at all if you are just going to tell people that other opinions are worthless? I wouldn't have posted more than what I had already written in the NY meet thread, but the OP asked specifically here.

I do not piss on any negative impression of the Ultrasone headphones on this board, and I have been extremely consistent on this, I piss on any negative impression of the Ultrasones based in a 50 second auditions, like yours, as they do need special needs, and favorable conditions, unlike any other headphone on the market till now, as they are indeed different....is that so hard to understand? Well it seems that for you it is, so I will render my case here....And I apologize with the original poster for all this hassle!!!!

 

[jpelg]

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Originally Posted by Sovkiller I piss on any negative impression based in a 50 second auditions, like yours.

You have no idea how much time I spent intently listening to all three headphones (Senns, Beyers, & Ultrasones) at that table on Saturday. I assure you it was a decent amount of time (nearly an hour with multiple CD's). It was the most concentrated listening I did that day. And I am a fairly experienced listener.

So please don't discount my opinion or make claims in public based on something you don't know. But 50 seconds would be enough to know what the 2500's sound like - bad.

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally Posted by jpelg You have no idea how much time I spent intently listening to all three headphones (Senns, Beyers, & Ultrasones) at that table on Saturday. I assure you it was a decent amount of time (nearly an hour with multiple CD's). It was the most concentrated listening I did that day. So please don't discount my opinion or make claims in public based on something you don't know. But 50 seconds would be enough to know what the 2500's sound like - bad.

I'm not discounting your opinion, nor any other, our opinion is as valid as valid is the experience we have with them, and sorry to disgree one more time with you, but in an hour, or in three hours, or in a whole day, you are not even half way of being introduced to understand what an Ultrasone heapdhone will be able to show you. Simply your brain will refuse to take it, our brain needs time (or at least mine needed it) to break what we were doing for years and years in a completely different way....we are used to a completelly different presentation for years, don't pretent to errase that, and forget that in just an hour, please!!! Just as an example would you be able to drive in Europe, seated in the right seat in just two hours???

And as I stated in my very first post, I encourage every single person to take any opinion, yours or mine, as a grain of salt, and listen for themselves. We all listen slightly differently, and we all have different preferences as well, in other words, it is very likely that after spending six months with them, you will not like them neither, nothing wrong on that...And that doesn't make our opinions wrong or right, just ours...

Now I'm going to bed, end of the discussion, I'm tired of it, honestly, and also the PROLine 2500 is waiting for me for maybe another good two hours of listening to Joe Satriani Live...!!!

 

[Dexdexter]

First off, Ralph, thank you for your considered replies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller ...but till now all you will see, will be those opinions based in 60 seconds auditions, as they have no other way of listen them...

Not entirely, SK. I managed to spend a couple of hours in the company of both the PROline 2500 and HFI 2200 ULE yesterday.

Unfortunately, I must dash, but I will post my initial impressions when I return this evening.

Best, Dex