[Origin89]

Quote:

So if 3 people see Richard Nixon's face in a potato, I can trust that it is indeed Richard Nixon's face until somebody disagrees? It's still his fault. He had zero empirical evidence, so he was trusting what other people heard subjectively, trust being the key word. It's a bit of a bummer, but sometimes people are just wrong about stuff.

 
A lot of times people are just wrong. But thankfully this site has enough decent and intelligent people to dodge most of the bullsh**t. It's still going to happen from time to time, until we're all yogis.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

 
...  I forget if it was Joker or Clie that was supposed to be part of the tour, but they dropped out, IDK why. 

 
Still on it, and have 3Ai and 4Ai with me for about two weeks now. Will review them in next two weeks or so.

 

[doublea71]

Quote:

If a person is new to head-fi with no prior knowledge of engineering let alone audio products, he or she will only have accessible information in the form of subjective reviews. It's nobody's fault really. Heir did what any company would do, write favourably regarding its products. Serious7 fell into the same trap as most newbies would. 

I think it's a lesson we all learn one way or another in life. Without graphs and a good idea of how to interpret them, there's a lot of trust involved in picking up new gear. I bought my GR07s after doing a lot of reading, but without really using any graphs; I was lucky because I happen to really like them. I could have just as easily been unimpressed by them considering their faults. The point I was trying to make is that if you're going to trust people, you shouldn't be surprised by the occasional disappointment - it comes with the territory. I was considering pulling the trigger on the 4Ais, but I began to recognize a trait in myself that I don't think is very positive (a penchant for always looking for something better once an acquisition has been made instead of just being content with what I have - sound familiar, anybody?) At any rate, these are indeed first-world problems and not worth anybody getting their panties in a bunch over...

 

[elnero]

I live in a small, somewhat isolated area so the vast majority of my purchases are based on reviews/measurements. I can't tell you how many purchases over the years haven't turned out how I expected based on the research I did. It's the nature of audio, if you can't hear the product beforehand, relying on reviews and/or measurements is a crap shoot. It's simply "buying to try" so when doing this you need to take into account the possibility that you won't like what you hear and have to resell. Because I tend to have to buy to try, I do rely on reviews but I understand that they're subjective. Before making a blind purchase I try to read as many as I can to see if I can find an average but sometimes the purchase just doesn't turn out how I expected based on that average.

Being upset that the posted reviews and/or the marketing material "misled" you is a bit silly in my opinion. Putting too much trust in any marketing material from a manufacturer is just asking for trouble. And, unfortunately, I'd say 99% of the reviews on Head-Fi and the various online blogs are from amatuers, you need to understand their context, experience and preferences. For instance, when I posted my 4.Ai impressions my only IEM for a fairly long period beforehand was the Westone 4 so my impressions were heavily influenced by how I felt they compared to those. Now that I've heard quite a few others in comparison I can better see the 4.Ai's flaws. That's not to say my feelings on them have changed overly much but my enthusiasm for them has tempered.  I still think they are nicely balanced without any one frequency taking precedence making them a decent all-rounder in the price range, but with more time and experience I did notice that at times they could sound a bit dull and lacked an amount of clarity in comparison to some of the others that I was able to compare them to, especially when you move up the ladder to something like the 1plus2. This is where putting more stock in someone like tinyman392's review makes sense, he has a multitude of IEM's on hand plus a good deal of experience and I think trys to be more objective than the average Head-Fi user. Or as lee730 said, you try to find others who have preferences similar to yours whose opinions you give more credence to than the average joe blow in the "appreciation" threads.

Another part of the problem is just that, a good portion of these reviews/impressions are posted in "appreciation" type threads where negative comments tend to get shot down as not being in line with the theme of the thread. I remember back when I got my 4.Ai's I talked to another person who recently purchased them who wasn't as enamoured with them as I was and I tried to get them to post their thoughts but they weren't comfortable doing so. It's a shame because they would have added a nice counterpoint to many of the reviews that were out there and this user had quite a few higher end IEM's to compare to so had better context than most.

To be honest, because I rely so heavily on user reviews for my own purchases I've tried to give back by posting my own impressions to help other potential buyers in their purchasing decision but when I see situations like this I find it getting harder and harder to feel comfortable doing so.

 

[eke2k6]

I personally found the 4.Ai completely underwhelming, given the price and hype around it. I've heard sets around $200[size=small]± $50 that outperform it in many areas.[/size]
 
The problem with this thread can be explained with just the title. It's a self perpetrating nest of fanboyism that hypes products, causing others to spend their hard earned money. I really don't mean to insult anyone, but that's simply what it is. There is truly a cult-like mentality here that is unsettling.
 
As for the 4.Ai and other products, rarely do you see anyone compare it to similar tiered products. On top of that, people who want to jump to the "top" go straight for Heir because of all the hype. Now if these people are coming from something like a Meelec M6, then of course they will think the 4.Ai is amazing, further adding fuel to the fire. Case in point:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/heir-audio-4-ai/reviews
 
I personally didn't even think the wood work on the 4.Ai was that good looking.
 
 

 

[Carlsan]

Quote:

 
Still on it, and have 3Ai and 4Ai with me for about two weeks now. Will review them in next two weeks or so.

I'll be interested in what you have to say about the 3Ai, I have a pair on the for sale threads, was unimpressed but keep on thinking that I may be missing something.
Keep on thinking that maybe it's the tips, that I can't get the right seal.
 
Hopefully someone else can take better advantage of my 3Ai.
 
As for the hype train, I was thinking of getting a 5.0, that universal got my attention from various comments on both this thread and the Heir 5 thread. With the changes in Heir, and my funds going to a couple of other high end universals, I've since put off this purchase. Maybe all for the better.

 

[project86]

I was one of the original people to review the 4.A and I stand by my comments. Can I write a better review now than I did then, which would maybe uncover more truth? Yes, but that's always the case many months or years after writing a review. One gains more perspective, more experience, logs more hours with the product, hears more competing models, etc. But I still maintain my 4.A sounds the way I described it, though I can't speak for anyone else's 4.A since each one is potentially a bit different. I heard the 4.Ai much later and could definitely hear the differences - rather significant ones. I liked the 4.Ai for what it was but always recommended the "real" custom version for a significantly improved experience. As did Sinocelt who was one of the earliest 4.A users/fans that I can remember. 
 
I don't know about all this talk of being "misled" and reviews coming from "amateurs" and therefore not being reliable. Think about it - is anyone, ever going to line up completely with your preferences? Be it myself or Tyll or Average Joe or ljokerl or ClieOS or any other experienced listener - we all hear differently, and there's always going to be some product where you disagree with our assessment. We might even match your opinion 9 out of 10 times, but then comes that last one where we "midlead" you. Plus there are countless other users who may give their opinions - it all has to be taken into account, but ultimately nobody can "hear" the product for you - you have to try it yourself and see how you like it. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. With CIEMs it is a gamble - no way around that. 
 
This forum has a classified section through which I'd say every single headphone has passed at one time or another. Sony R10, Sennheiser HE-90, K10000, SR-007 and SR-009, Heir 8.A, JH13 and JH16, SA5000, all the top Grados and Audio Technicas and Ultrasones.... Sure, people don't usually come right out and say "I hated this headphone and now I'm selling it!" but short of a financial hardship, people wouldn't be selling if they truly loved the headphone. Does that mean everyone is being misled? Of course not. I personally hated the Sony SA5000 and find it bright, thin, and abrasive. I know people for whom it is "just right". I personally really enjoyed the Audio Technica W3000 but I know people who found it overly bassy with strange mids. And I get why they feel that way. We could go on about each headphone and why some people would disagree, or we can just say everyone literally hears differently and also has different preferences, and then move on. This is a hobby, remember? 

 

[serious7]

Quote:

I personally found the 4.Ai completely underwhelming, given the price and hype around it. I've heard sets around $200[size=small]± $50 that outperform it in many areas.[/size]
 
The problem with this thread can be explained with just the title. It's a self perpetrating nest of fanboyism that hypes products, causing others to spend their hard earned money. I really don't mean to insult anyone, but that's simply what it is. There is truly a cult-like mentality here that is unsettling.
 
As for the 4.Ai and other products, rarely do you see anyone compare it to similar tiered products. On top of that, people who want to jump to the "top" go straight for Heir because of all the hype. Now if these people are coming from something like a Meelec M6, then of course they will think the 4.Ai is amazing, further adding fuel to the fire. Case in point:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/heir-audio-4-ai/reviews
 
I personally didn't even think the wood work on the 4.Ai was that good looking.
 
 

spot on.

 

[vwinter]

This forum has a classified section through which I'd say every single headphone has passed at one time or another. Sony R10, Sennheiser HE-90, K10000, SR-007 and SR-009, Heir 8.A, JH13 and JH16, SA5000, all the top Grados and Audio Technicas and Ultrasones.... Sure, people don't usually come right out and say "I hated this headphone and now I'm selling it!" but short of a financial hardship, people wouldn't be selling if they truly loved the headphone. Does that mean everyone is being misled? Of course not. I personally hated the Sony SA5000 and find it bright, thin, and abrasive. I know people for whom it is "just right". I personally really enjoyed the Audio Technica W3000 but I know people who found it overly bassy with strange mids. And I get why they feel that way. We could go on about each headphone and why some people would disagree, or we can just say everyone literally hears differently and also has different preferences, and then move on. This is a hobby, remember? 

Not a headphone but For Sale.

 

[thegrobe]

I was one of the original people to review the 4.A and I stand by my comments. Can I write a better review now than I did then, which would maybe uncover more truth? Yes, but that's always the case many months or years after writing a review. One gains more perspective, more experience, logs more hours with the product, hears more competing models, etc. But I still maintain my 4.A sounds the way I described it, though I can't speak for anyone else's 4.A since each one is potentially a bit different. I heard the 4.Ai much later and could definitely hear the differences - rather significant ones. I liked the 4.Ai for what it was but always recommended the "real" custom version for a significantly improved experience. As did Sinocelt who was one of the earliest 4.A users/fans that I can remember. 

I don't know about all this talk of being "misled" and reviews coming from "amateurs" and therefore not being reliable. Think about it - is anyone, ever going to line up completely with your preferences? Be it myself or Tyll or Average Joe or ljokerl or ClieOS or any other experienced listener - we all hear differently, and there's always going to be some product where you disagree with our assessment. We might even match your opinion 9 out of 10 times, but then comes that last one where we "midlead" you. Plus there are countless other users who may give their opinions - it all has to be taken into account, but ultimately nobody can "hear" the product for you - you have to try it yourself and see how you like it. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. With CIEMs it is a gamble - no way around that. 

This forum has a classified section through which I'd say every single headphone has passed at one time or another. Sony R10, Sennheiser HE-90, K10000, SR-007 and SR-009, Heir 8.A, JH13 and JH16, SA5000, all the top Grados and Audio Technicas and Ultrasones.... Sure, people don't usually come right out and say "I hated this headphone and now I'm selling it!" but short of a financial hardship, people wouldn't be selling if they truly loved the headphone. Does that mean everyone is being misled? Of course not. I personally hated the Sony SA5000 and find it bright, thin, and abrasive. I know people for whom it is "just right". I personally really enjoyed the Audio Technica W3000 but I know people who found it overly bassy with strange mids. And I get why they feel that way. We could go on about each headphone and why some people would disagree, or we can just say everyone literally hears differently and also has different preferences, and then move on. This is a hobby, remember?

Amen brother

 

[Carlsan]

Quote:

Not a headphone but For Sale.

 
That cracked me up!
LOL !

 

[Poimandres]

I personally found the 4.Ai completely underwhelming, given the price and hype around it. I've heard sets around $200[size=small]± $50 that outperform it in many areas.[/size]


The problem with this thread can be explained with just the title. It's a self perpetrating nest of fanboyism that hypes products, causing others to spend their hard earned money. I really don't mean to insult anyone, but that's simply what it is. There is truly a cult-like mentality here that is unsettling.

As for the 4.Ai and other products, rarely do you see anyone compare it to similar tiered products. On top of that, people who want to jump to the "top" go straight for Heir because of all the hype. Now if these people are coming from something like a Meelec M6, then of course they will think the 4.Ai is amazing, further adding fuel to the fire. Case in point:

http://www.head-fi.org/products/heir-audio-4-ai/reviews

I personally didn't even think the wood work on the 4.Ai was that good looking.

First of all we can all certainly do without another Kanye photo. Secondly I could care less what you think of the thread being renamed, from the onset I started this post for my appreciation of John and just because he is no longer with Heir doesn't mean that this thread shouldn't reflect what he has done in the world of ciems. John once a fellow headfier has done what most of us will only dream of and has introduced a lot of ideas that have been reproduced at other shops.

As it has been stated before this hobby is very subjective and not everyone hears things exactly the same way, before getting your post count up even higher since 2011 (not an easy feat I am sure) maybe you should have been following this thread the last few days before making a post such as yours. As that has already been done and addressed.

We are all guilty of adding to the hype for a product for various reasons at one time or another, yourself included.

It is funny though how the reverse fan boys come out in groves since Johns departure from Heir.

 

[Mimouille]

I am sorry but I somehow agree more with what Eke said, not specifically about the 4.a because I owned the 5.0, but about the mentality in general on this thread and several others. I was personally attacked here anytime I questionned a Heir product or the Wizard. Literaly attacked and / or made fun of, even by the Wizard himself who's attitude on this thread at times should commend anything but worship.

Project86 I understand what you are saying, there is no perfect review but there is such a thing as hype. A few people love and recommend an iem and then they are labelled as excellent, a few others buy it and are less experienced so even if they are not enthusiastic, their criticism is lost in the noise..so we do not always need to calm things down and be nice and say everything is going to be alright. we are not 12 so unpleasant things may be said as long as everyone stays civil.

 

[eke2k6]

 
 
I don't know about all this talk of being "misled" and reviews coming from "amateurs" and therefore not being reliable. Think about it - is anyone, ever going to line up completely with your preferences? Be it myself or Tyll or Average Joe or ljokerl or ClieOS or any other experienced listener - we all hear differently, and there's always going to be some product where you disagree with our assessment. We might even match your opinion 9 out of 10 times, but then comes that last one where we "midlead" you. Plus there are countless other users who may give their opinions - it all has to be taken into account, but ultimately nobody can "hear" the product for you - you have to try it yourself and see how you like it. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. With CIEMs it is a gamble - no way around that. 
 
 

 
I am not sure you fully read what I wrote. I never said anyone was being disingenuous about the 4ai, but rather that they were too enthusiastic without making any comparisons to other products in the same performance tier. The 4.Ai in a vacuum is a solid product, but it is ultimately disappointing when you consider that the GR07, RE272, and others offer similar (and sometimes better) performance at less than half the price.
 
 
Quote:

First of all we can all certainly do without another Kanye photo. Secondly I could care less what you think of the thread being renamed, from the onset I started this post for my appreciation of John and just because he is no longer with Heir doesn't mean that this thread shouldn't reflect what he has done in the world of ciems. John once a fellow headfier has done what most of us will only dream of and has introduced a lot of ideas that have been reproduced at other shops.

As it has been stated before this hobby is very subjective and not everyone hears things exactly the same way, before getting your post count up even higher since 2011 (not an easy feat I am sure) maybe you should have been following this thread the last few days before making a post such as yours. As that has already been done and addressed.

We are all guilty of adding to the hype for a product for various reasons at one time or another, yourself included.

It is funny though how the reverse fan boys come out in groves since Johns departure from Heir.

 
Firstly, that Kanye picture will live on as a visual representation of the truth in an unwelcome place.
 
I have been commenting in this thread since hearing the 4.ai this time last year, and my "post count" is a representation of how active I have been in the community. If you'll look at my posts you'll see how many of them have been in service of others. Any more attacks?
 
It's not a matter of "adding hype." That would be the greatest understatement when it comes to this thread. It's like a hype vortex, second only to my friend Dsnuts' hype blackholes. 

 

[project86]

Quote:

Project86 I understand what you are saying, there is no perfect review but there is such a thing as hype. A few people love and recommend an iem and then they are labelled as excellent, a few others buy it and are less experienced so even if they are not enthusiastic, their criticism is lost in the noise..so we do not always need to calm things down and be nice and say everything is going to be alright. we are not 12 so unpleasant things may be said as long as everyone stays civil.

 
That's a good point. We should all be free to express our opinions - I don't care if I have a million posts here, any noob should be able to pop in to my review threads and offer a counterpoint to what I hear. And as long as it's presented the right way I absolutely have no problem with that. But if a group of people all like some product, is it really "hype" in the pejorative sense or just a group of like-minded people who seem to hear/enjoy the same thing from the product?
 
Hype implies a false sense of enthusiasm for a product that doesn't deserve it. I prefer to take people at their word, and assume they enjoy what ever it is they are praising. Now, when people use some expensive IEM or headphone (or whatever) as an example of the best out there, but they have never heard it (or it hasn't even been released yet!), then that's when I break out the "hype" label. And I agree that type of thing is no good. 
 
So I guess, for me, here's the difference: someone saying "4.A is the best!" while having no experience with other customs, equals hype. Someone saying "4.A is my favorite out of all the custom IEMs I own!" is not hype, by my definition. 
 
 
Quote:

 
I am not sure you fully read what I wrote. I never said anyone was being disingenuous about the 4ai, but rather that they were too enthusiastic without making any comparisons to other products in the same performance tier. The 4.Ai in a vacuum is a solid product, but it is ultimately disappointing when you consider that the GR07, RE272, and others offer similar (and sometimes better) performance at less than half the price.
 
Firstly, that Kanye picture will live on as a visual representation of the truth in an unwelcome place.
 

 
I sure did. There have been numerous comparisons of the 4.Ai to other models. Those comparisons have not always gone in favor of the Heir model. It goes back to what I said above - someone who blindly loves the 4.Ai and recommends it as the best thing ever, with no point of reference, is indeed too enthusiastic. Someone who likes it more than similarly priced competition is not.
 
And regarding The Kanye Shrug as representing "truth in an unwelcome place" - we could just as easily call that "an example of a not unreasonable, subjective opinion, expressed in a wildly inappropriate fashion".