[CharlyBrown]

Grab your rig, the nearest one if you have multiple. Find the song that most reminds you of your first love. Play it. I promise you, none of this stuff about design, pricing, etc. will matter after that. And if by chance it still does, you're doing this hobby wrong.

Ok…. Yes, it works! Doing the hobby right!

 

[Tanalasta]

I personally was out on the storm when everyone stated they need a desktop amp to not sound thin or analytical. For myself my IEMs are for using with DAPs so I can use them on the go and desktop amps are for my headphones. Will the Storm beat out the Utopia in sound and comfort? The storm now costs more and needs more power, will it beat out a similar priced headphone?

Comfort is relative. But in terms of sound, when I tried the Storm, it did sound amazing out of the Naim HE.

I didn’t have a chance to form more than initial impressions. But yes. I would say sonically it would trade punches with Utopia. That said, I purchased Utopia 2022 in the A2A fire sale for 2281 USD

Immersive would be the singular descriptor that comes to mind first.

 

[CharlyBrown]

Comfort is relative. But in terms of sound, when I tried the Storm, it did sound amazing out of the Naim HE.

I didn’t have a chance to form more than initial impressions. But yes. I would say sonically it would trade punches with Utopia. That said, I purchased Utopia 2022 in the A2A fire sale for 2281 USD

Immersive would be the singular descriptor that comes to mind first.

This is a very good comparison, imho. I was able to audition Storm once and I wish I could compare it with the Utopia side-by-side but yes, I think they are IEM/headphone counterparts! At least very close.

 

[pkcpga]

Comfort is relative. But in terms of sound, when I tried the Storm, it did sound amazing out of the Naim HE.

I didn’t have a chance to form more than initial impressions. But yes. I would say sonically it would trade punches with Utopia. That said, I purchased Utopia 2022 in the A2A fire sale for 2281 USD

Immersive would be the singular descriptor that comes to mind first.

So at what you paid for the Utopia even myself bought it during a Focal sale for 3,800. How does the Storm measure up?

For me the value (not price) of an IEM - or any audio product - should be relative to the competition.

So using Storm as an example, since that's what's being discussed currently, at $6K it would have to be better than any other IEM I enjoy, with my chain, at a lower price tier, to represent better value to me. And I don't just mean better at one or two things, I mean better at most things, and consequently also more enjoyable, comfortable etc.

Again, this is just my own measure of value, and each of us has our own measure. Whether or not it's affordable is a moot point, since there are millions of things available to buy in this world that I can't afford. As an enthusiast and reviewer, though, I get to determine relative value, and one day if I do get to hear an IEM like Storm, I'd love to know if it represents good value.

So true and even with having the money, for myself the IEM needs to be better to give me enough motive to buy. Recently tried the Fei Wan and that wow’d me. It was like one of my favorites the Jewel combined with another one of my favorites the Anni 2023 and gave me a more exciting version of both. The Storm for myself is far from a blind buy based on others reviews, even if the Storm cost less than my wife or daughter going to a horse show for a few days. Maybe if it was more available to hear and really was impressive for an IEM with an IEM setup (DAP). Just not interested enough to go out of my way to hear it or spend money on it. It’s an IEM to me that needs to search out customers once it’s mass released. Sure it was in demand when they only made a handful, I’m sure that will change once there’s a bunch in the wild. It’s not at the price point of the Anni where the average consumer will consider it. UM releases expensive IEMs and the bird Ti but only in limited quantities than moves on. I personally think cheapening the look to mass produce the Storm than raise the price is really shooting themselves in the foot. They already got a chunk of their target audience with the first batch and winning over the on the fence group by making it less attractive is poor marketing.

 

[CodenameBK201]

So, 6000 USD + 20% (?) customs duties.

All these price increases (yep, Oriolus with Ti, UM with FS and now STORM) are getting really, really annoying. On the other hand, there are TOTLs like Anni 2023 and Raven that cost half as much and are just as capable (if not more in some circumstances). Trifecta, Fir Audio's Xe6 and Rn6 cost just about €2000 used and for me personally and according to WT Pools they still belong at the top. As far as I am personally concerned, I simply cannot justify much higher sums. I mean: STORM = Xe6 + Rn6 + Trifecta .

Too bad, that was it with STORM: I'm out.

Sorry for dragging it down, I just wanted to let out a little frustration. I wish you every success, you'll sell everything anyway.

And here we are at this thread. Again. Something Something Unique Melody, Something Something rising costs. There was a time when I would have phrased the following as far more political, but recent insight has granted me even less of a filter, which is remarkably liberating. I'm going to be blunt, and offer a counterpoint here which I'm sure you're not going to like, but one that's intended with zero degree of malice: respectfully, you were never "in" to begin with. If you're balking at that price, you are not their target demographic.

You are not their target demographic.

To repeat for those of you in the back: you are not their target demographic.

I'm not going to justify costs, or labor or r and d because I have eff-all insight into any of that. But the bottom line is the target demographic for several thousand dollar IEMs is people that can afford several thousand dollar IEMs. There is no pride, or shame, in not being part of that demographic. But the bottom line is at that price point the concern of the seller isn't accessibility or affordability: it's a demographic willing to pay a certain amount (and you can all notice that I say that objectively, with zero judgment on sonic performance or people willing to pay that). There are plenty of IEMs that cost less. This isn't one of them. And as long as I'm being honest on here, I'm going to expand on that:

That's perfectly fine, STORM is a a no-holes-barred halo product that is also demanding of the user in its chain requirements. The performance ceiling of STORM is extreme as that was one of the design objectives and goals we set for ourselves, but that's something that not everyone needs or even wants for that matter. Whether you require that extreme is entirely dependent on your preferences, listening habits and library. We definitely believe STORM does things that no other IEM can do and for that reason alone justifies its existence, yet also acknowledging that the resulting cost in achieving that puts it out of reach of many.

We will have other more affordable offerings in the future that will implement what we have learned from the STORM's development and we aim for them to be as impressive as STORM is in their respective price tiers. But STORM was first and foremost designed for ourselves. With the entire team having explored the TOTL tier of the portable market for a fair number of years before we started Subtonic, there wasn't really anything we would want to make other than something that really stood out and had performance characteristics that we have been looking for but haven't found.


I don't think it's fair to ask us or any of our industry peers for that matter to list down a cost breakdown permanently on a public forum if that's what you're asking for. If yourself or anyone else has any specific questions, you can ask them here and I'll answer to the extent that we're comfortable with. That's more of what I meant when I mentioned talking to us at shows as it's easier to explain and provide the proper context and explanations of what can and can't be disclosed in person, rather than type out an essay of disclaimers and caveats with every statement that would be necessary with permenant public post in a setting like this forum. We will probably make a blog post in time to provide as complete a picture as possible for everyone to refer to.

Respectfully: Chang doesn't care.

Now I know there's people who are going to add their own spin on that, or imply tone or phrasing which I'm not using:

"that's really judgmental, how could you say that"
"he does care you're just misinterpreting him"
"what do you know you're not buying his IEMs"

Let's break that down. I didn't say "he doesn't care because he's a jerk". I didn't say "he doesn't care because he's out to spite you". No. He doesn't care. Period. That doesn't make him evil, or apathetic: it makes him a businessman. His aim is to sell to his target demographic. If someone is unwilling to pay that asking price, they are not the target demographic for this product in the first place. And on that note: yeah, he doesn't owe us any justification for that price. He could ask for a million gajillion dollars if he wanted. It's his business.

Manufacturers aren't friends. Period. They can be friendly, certainly. But they're not friends. And I know most are going to read that sentence and imagine that my portrait of a businessman is some Lex Luthor caricature, complete with dollar bill signs for eyes and a maniacal laugh, so again, I'll iterate: read what I say literally, and try not to project a tone that isn't there. Manufacturers aren't our friends. They aren't aiming to make pals or pursue some abstract artistic ideal. They're businessmen. The primary goal is business. Audio is a for profit business. Businesses will charge the maximum amount they believe they can charge in order to gain profit. Audio improvements are secondary to that, and accessibility is only a motivating factor depending on the target demographic. There are plenty of lower cost of entry brands that pursue a lower cost of entry demographic. Storm isn't it.

Some members will justify increasing costs in the pursuit of perceived improved audio, and throw around a blatant one-size-fits-all mantra of "it costs that much more because it sounds better", and yes, that covers much of Head-Fi's sponsored demographic (but not everyone, and not all of it). Then you'll have members like @PixelSquish who will somehow misconstrue what I'm saying into a "rah rah down with the proletariat, we have to stop companies from taking advantage of us, etc". And again, I didn't say any of that.

Either way, I've got no horse in this race. My purchasing of audio gear, beyond the new DUNU cable I'm helping design (of which I'll have to pay for my own unit at my own expense), is fairly nonexistent for the foreseeable future (and hey--if you're looking for a lower cost of entry brand, that's a prime example). But DUNU isn't competing with Storm any more than Fir is. It isn't the same pricing demographic. Period. And regardless of the emotions people want to impart onto that, that's simply the situation.

With all due respect, going off on something based on opinions from others and not having heard it at all is just about the wrongest thing you can do in this hobby.

Tl;dr, reviews good, demoing better, yes. But this entire board is opinion, reviews help shape impressions and tastes and you already know all this why am I reiterating it

Grab your rig, the nearest one if you have multiple. Find the song that most reminds you of your first love. Play it. I promise you, none of this stuff about design, pricing, etc. will matter after that. And if by chance it still does, you're doing this hobby wrong.

I think there’s a lot I could say to this that could get me in hot water. I understand the intent here. What I will say is there's plenty of people on this board I disagree with. Some whose opinion in my eyes has a dedicated place reserved adjacent to my recycling. Some who I'm certain are sneering at me as they read this right now. But in spite of any or all of that: I'd be very reluctant to label anyone as doing the hobby wrong for them.

But, hey, y'know, end of the day I'm just some rando on the internet. So I'd encourage anyone to believe anything or nothing that I say. Most will ultimately draw their own preconceived conclusions.

edited for grammar, spelling

 

[phiemon]

And here we are at this thread. Again. Something Something Unique Melody, Something Something rising costs. There was a time when I would have phrased the following as far more political, but recent insight has granted me even less of a filter, which is remarkably liberating. I'm going to be blunt, and offer a counterpoint here which I'm sure you're not going to like, but one that's intended with zero degree of malice: respectfully, you were never "in" to begin with. If you're balking at that price, you are not their target demographic.

You are not their target demographic.

To repeat for those of you in the back: you are not their target demographic.

I'm not going to justify costs, or labor or r and d because I have eff-all insight into any of that. But the bottom line is the target demographic for several thousand dollar IEMs is people that can afford several thousand dollar IEMs. There is no pride, or shame, in not being part of that demographic. But the bottom line is at that price point the concern of the seller isn't accessibility or affordability: it's a demographic willing to pay a certain amount (and you can all notice that I say that objectively, with zero judgment on sonic performance or people willing to pay that). There are plenty of IEMs that cost less. This isn't one of them. And as long as I'm being honest on here, I'm going to expand on that:

Respectfully: Chang doesn't care.

Now I know there's people who are going to add their own spin on that, or imply tone or phrasing which I'm not using:

"that's really judgmental, how could you say that"
"he does care you're just misinterpreting him"
"what do you know you're not buying his IEMs"

Let's break that down. I didn't say "he doesn't care because he's a jerk". I didn't say "he doesn't care because he's out to spite you". No. He doesn't care. Period. That doesn't make him evil, or apathetic: it makes him a businessman. His aim is to sell to his target demographic. If someone is unwilling to pay that asking price, they are not the target demographic for this product in the first place. And on that note: yeah, he doesn't owe us any justification for that price. He could ask for a million gajillion dollars if he wanted. It's his business.

Manufacturers aren't friends. Period. They can be friendly, certainly. But they're not friends. And I know most are going to read that sentence and imagine that my portrait of a businessman is some Lex Luthor caricature, complete with dollar bill signs for eyes and a maniacal laugh, so again, I'll iterate: read what I say literally, and try not to project a tone that isn't there. Manufacturers aren't our friends. They aren't aiming to make pals or pursue some abstract artistic ideal. They're businessman. The primary goal is business. Audio is a for profit business. Businesses will charge the maximum amount they believe they can charge in order to gain profit. Audio improvements are secondary to that, and accessibility is only a motivating factor depending on the target demographic. There are plenty of lower cost of entry brands that pursue a lower cost of entry demographic. Storm isn't it.

Some members will justify increasing costs in the pursuit of perceived improved audio, and throw around a blatant one-size-fits-all mantra of "it costs that much more because it sounds better", and yes, that covers much of Head-Fi's sponsored demographic (but not everyone, and not all of it). Then you'll have members like @PixelSquish who will somehow misconstrue what I'm saying into a "rah rah down with the proletariat, we have to stop companies from taking advantage of us, etc". And again, I didn't say any of that.

Either way, I've got no horse in this race. My purchasing of audio gear, beyond the new DUNU cable I'm helping design (of which I'll have to pay for my own unit at my own expense), is fairly nonexistent for the foreseeable future (and hey--if you're looking for a lower cost of entry brand, that's a prime example). But DUNU isn't competing with Storm any more than Fir is. It isn't the same pricing demographic. Period. And regardless of the emotions people want to impart onto that, that's simply the situation.

Tl;dr, reviews good, demoing better, yes. But this entire board is opinion, reviews help shape impressions and tastes and you already know all this why am I reiterating it

I think there’s a lot I could say to this that could get me in hot water. I understand the intent here. What I will say is there's plenty of people on this board I disagree with. Some who's opinion in my eyes has a dedicated place reserved adjacent to my recycling. Some who I'm certain are sneering at me as they read this right now. But in spite of any or all of that: I'd be very reluctant to label anyone as doing the hobby wrong for them.

But, hey, y'know, end of the day I'm just some rando on the internet. So I'd encourage anyone to believe anything or nothing that I say. Most will ultimately draw their own preconceived conclusions.

So many wise words (and great writing)!

 

[Tanalasta]

So at what you paid for the Utopia even myself bought it during a Focal sale for 3,800. How does the Storm measure up?

I actually thought Storm compared favourably with the LCD5 (with the MitchB convolution filter and had the Norne cable at the time)

Could I be happy listening to Utopia? Or LCD5? Heck yes. At the moment I’m enjoying Spartacus heaps which is significantly less money than Storm. I enjoy the tuning, the envelop of BCD sound and engagement. Trailii was the one that took me to the summit IEM back in the day

Sometimes have to remind myself that as much as I enjoyed the nuances of that $200 meal… I’m pretty satisfied with that excellent $50 dinner.

 

[aaf evo]

Well... the timing is perfect. They just showed up!

 

[Tanalasta]

Well... the timing is perfect. They just showed up!

And … looking forward to your impressions on the very impressive chain.

Congratulations

 

[Rolu]

So, 6000 USD + 20% (?) customs duties.

All these price increases (yep, Oriolus with Ti, UM with FS and now STORM) are getting really, really annoying. On the other hand, there are TOTLs like Anni 2023 and Raven that cost half as much and are just as capable (if not more in some circumstances). Trifecta, Fir Audio's Xe6 and Rn6 cost just about €2000 used and for me personally and according to WT Pools they still belong at the top. As far as I am personally concerned, I simply cannot justify much higher sums. I mean: STORM = Xe6 + Rn6 + Trifecta .

Too bad, that was it with STORM: I'm out.

Sorry for dragging it down, I just wanted to let out a little frustration. I wish you every success, you'll sell everything anyway.

Why stop there? Why don't you then go down and calculate Rn6= Z1r + M9 + M7 ? Yayy, am I right?

Trailli is better than the Rn6, Anni etc. and is reflected in the price. Now how much juice you want squeezed out of your music depends on how much you wanna pay.

 

[phiemon]

Why stop there? Why don't you then go down and calculate Rn6= Z1r + M9 + M7 ? Yayy, am I right?

Trailli is better than the Rn6, Anni etc. and is reflected in the price. Now how much juice you want squeezed out of your music depends on how much you wanna pay.

Mine was just one example.

And whether Traillii is better than Rn6, Anni etc. is an open question. First of all, it's about defining the "better". Secondly, it's about subjective perception. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Traillii and for me the Rn6 is "better" than Anni, but Anni is "better" than Traillii, so the latter is for me not "better" than the Rn6 and Anni despite the much higher (the double?) price .

By the way: I didn't like the Z1R at all, not even close to the Rn6/Anni.

 

[Rolu]

Mine was just one example.

And whether Traillii is better than Rn6, Anni etc. is an open question. First of all, it's about defining the "better". Secondly, it's about subjective perception. Personally, I'm not a fan of the Traillii and for me the Rn6 is "better" than Anni, but Anni is "better" than Traillii, so the latter is for me not "better" than the Rn6 and Anni despite the much higher (the double?) price .

By the way: I didn't like the Z1R at all, not even close to the Rn6/Anni.

I understand that sound signature preference is a different thing. A bass head would prefer the Yanyin Canon over the Trailli for example, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

And I much prefer the Z1r over the Rn6, but I won't be calling the latter a rip off

 

[Rockwell75]

@Rockwell75
You got to spend more time with canpur CP622b

?

I've not heard the Canpur since I had the tour unit in Jan.

With all due respect, going off on something based on opinions from others and not having heard it at all is just about the wrongest thing you can do in this hobby.

Indeed, or based on graphs. I've found both-- even opinions of people I jive with generally-- to be only semi-reliable relative to my own perceptions. Just as no two snowflakes are alike, so are no two people's perception of a piece of gear necessarily the same. Demoing for yourself is really the only way to establish if something is for you. This used to be quite an issue for me, living as I do on the wild west coast of an IEM wasteland, which is why I worked to set up a tour program and go to great effort to attend CanJam. Both of these factors have saved me untold $$ in misguided blind buys.

In other news some hightlights from a nice bikeride I went on yesterday.

This rock fell out of a retreating glacier, thousands of years ago.

Coastal panorama...

Some schmuck with his earphones...

 

[phiemon]

I understand that sound signature preference is a different thing. A bass head would prefer the Yanyin Canon over the Trailli for example, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

And I much prefer the Z1r over the Rn6, but I won't be calling the latter a rip off

Yes of course, I know what you mean and I totally agree

 

[pkcpga]

Why stop there? Why don't you then go down and calculate Rn6= Z1r + M9 + M7 ? Yayy, am I right?

Trailli is better than the Rn6, Anni etc. and is reflected in the price. Now how much juice you want squeezed out of your music depends on how much you wanna pay.

Lol, the Trailli was a miss for me, like the RN6 and Anni better. The Bird has nice vocals just was a miss everywhere else for my personal taste. Sold it after 3 months. Sound is so personal.