[haci]

Quick impressions between RS8 and N30LE in H gain / Class AB / Solid State with RN6 listening to Ephedra's "Little Molecules (Original Mix)"

• Listening to the opening 00:00 to approx 00:25, both DAPs provided an immersive listening experience with a sense of that GOA "galatic space"
• This is a fast GOA track and both kept up with the rapid beats and fast decay, N30LE had slightly incisive detailed highs, thicker lowers and thumpier bass
• N30LE Class A was better suiter for this track – reducing thickness, add clarity and air usually
• On N30LE, the rythmic beat overlaying the syth bass around 04:05 has this nice elasticity and rave beat which makes me want to break my glow sticks. RS8 conveys this elasticity also well though its not as emphasized – it sounds correctly "reference" for electronica, LOL
• Layering is great on both, moving you through layers of fast beats
• The crash at the end is much more dramatic on RS8

"Little Molecules" is "rave-a-licious" and engaging with both DAPs. Subjectively, I find it very difficult to prefer one more than the other. Layering and immersion are excellent in both with RS8 sounding as what I would expect for GOA track and N30LE's richer, slightly thicker mids and thumpier bass. If you love bass, N30LE dah shizzles.

Now if I switch over to Class A, Tube Classic timbre – its glowsticks on

I could hear N30LE's bass improving over time as it only has 40 hours of burn in compared to over 300 hours on RS8.

Thanks a lot for this

 

[Piotr Michalak]

marketing, nothing. It has everything to do with creating a product that affluent audiophiles will want to buy as a means of refining their systems, even if only incrementally

That’s the real meaning of “marketing”. Marketing is not just advertising. Marketing is a philosophy of focusing the company on the market: on the needs of customers. Product development and positioning is a part of marketing. Even now, after a few centuries of modern business, only the best business people understand this to the core.

 

[Bosk]

1. I understand how this industry operates and believe that hi-end cable making is the best business of them all.

Low-tech, simple, easy to store and ship, hi-margin. Still hard to penetrate: you need to find really good material and produce some proprietary splitters and plugs.

I think PW and EA founders are multi-millionaires. I know a person who does low-end cables by hand in his basement and makes a great living with prices much lower than the aforementioned.

I myself have a company that sells hi-ticket information products based on strong personal brands of a few experts. I understand that a pricing strategy may be:
- in a manufacturing oriented company: based on cost, like you suggest (old school way of doing business)
- in a marketing oriented company: based on the subjective value of the solution for the customer. Brand and product positioning etc.

2. I still can’t unhear Murakumo2.

I have a great multitude of lower-end cables (“shielding” also - both ddHiFi cables from silver and copper). They just don’t scale as high as these overpriced TOTL we rave about here. So it’s not only a business for suckers, there is something going on.

3. I’m not sure we completely understand how the sound is transmitted through a cable. It’s quantum mechanics rather than Newton’s physics. The current doesn’t just go through the wire from what I understand. I watched some films about it, it supposedly has to do with fields rather than electron particles moving. Maybe someone here understands better and would explain.

Why isn’t silver the best sounding cable? Why 99% silver mixed with gold is even more technically proficient if it supposedly destroys the conductivity? Why is a hi-end copper cable louder when connected to a dap at the same volume than a low-end silver sometimes?

Piotr I've really enjoyed your recent contributions to the thread.

I agree with you - there's little doubt the profit margins TOTL cables generate can be enormous but there'll always be audiophiles willing to pay the premiums. When you've been in the game a long time it's hard to avoid the temptation of high-end cables, especially once you've had the chance to sample them & hear the difference.

They offer users the priceless ability to align their system closer to their preferences. Like you I believe science currently lacks the ability to fully explain how cables alter signals the way they do. Conductivity plays a role but there's clearly far more going on. Science couldn't acknowledge the existence of microbes for millennia but that didn't prevent them existing. Personally I've always loved silver and feel it lets more information through than copper, but isn't as musical.

These days companies like NiceHCK, Penon & Xinhs produce inexpensive cables that deliver very solid sound improvements - great portable audio sound has never been more accessible. However there's good reason people spend thousands on the latest flagships from EA, PWA & Eletech even though the gains can be relatively minor.

 

[Alpexis]

Trying to understand how an sp3000, which was launched October 2022 and still retails for €4299, can now be found in the classifieds for €2500 (depreciation of 42%). Not that I'm complaining, since I've scored some sweet deals through the classifieds section. But the early adopters amongst us must be either comfortable with losing a lot of money, or somehow getting major discounts on retail price. But even if you could get say 20% discount off retail, you'd still be losing around €900 by reselling within the year to chase the next upgrade. Is this business as usual in this amazing hobby or am I missing something?

 

[shznn]

1. I understand how this industry operates and believe that hi-end cable making is the best business of them all.

Low-tech, simple, easy to store and ship, hi-margin. Still hard to penetrate: you need to find really good material and produce some proprietary splitters and plugs.

I think PW and EA founders are multi-millionaires. I know a person who does low-end cables by hand in his basement and makes a great living with prices much lower than the aforementioned.

I myself have a company that sells hi-ticket information products based on strong personal brands of a few experts. I understand that a pricing strategy may be:
- in a manufacturing oriented company: based on cost, like you suggest (old school way of doing business)
- in a marketing oriented company: based on the subjective value of the solution for the customer. Brand and product positioning etc.

2. I still can’t unhear Murakumo2.

I have a great multitude of lower-end cables (“shielding” also - both ddHiFi cables from silver and copper). They just don’t scale as high as these overpriced TOTL we rave about here. So it’s not only a business for suckers, there is something going on.

3. I’m not sure we completely understand how the sound is transmitted through a cable. It’s quantum mechanics rather than Newton’s physics. The current doesn’t just go through the wire from what I understand. I watched some films about it, it supposedly has to do with fields rather than electron particles moving. Maybe someone here understands better and would explain.

Why isn’t silver the best sounding cable? Why 99% silver mixed with gold is even more technically proficient if it supposedly destroys the conductivity? Why is a hi-end copper cable louder when connected to a dap at the same volume than a low-end silver sometimes?

Piotr indeed dropping wisdom bombs based on solid business analysis & empirical foundations. Very enjoyable to read.

 

[PhonoPhi]

1. I understand how this industry operates and believe that hi-end cable making is the best business of them all.

Low-tech, simple, easy to store and ship, hi-margin. Still hard to penetrate: you need to find really good material and produce some proprietary splitters and plugs.

I think PW and EA founders are multi-millionaires. I know a person who does low-end cables by hand in his basement and makes a great living with prices much lower than the aforementioned.

I myself have a company that sells hi-ticket information products based on strong personal brands of a few experts. I understand that a pricing strategy may be:
- in a manufacturing oriented company: based on cost, like you suggest (old school way of doing business)
- in a marketing oriented company: based on the subjective value of the solution for the customer. Brand and product positioning etc.

2. I still can’t unhear Murakumo2.

I have a great multitude of lower-end cables (“shielding” also - both ddHiFi cables from silver and copper). They just don’t scale as high as these overpriced TOTL we rave about here. So it’s not only a business for suckers, there is something going on.

3. I’m not sure we completely understand how the sound is transmitted through a cable. It’s quantum mechanics rather than Newton’s physics. The current doesn’t just go through the wire from what I understand. I watched some films about it, it supposedly has to do with fields rather than electron particles moving. Maybe someone here understands better and would explain.

Why isn’t silver the best sounding cable? Why 99% silver mixed with gold is even more technically proficient if it supposedly destroys the conductivity? Why is a hi-end copper cable louder when connected to a dap at the same volume than a low-end silver sometimes?

I really like your comments, and I learned a lot about business, marketing and humans that I greatly appreciate.
So I dare to address 3., as science questions.
The science of electrical signal transmission is completely (and it is a strong statement that can be used here) understood, e.g
nothing principally new has been discovered for about almost 100 recent years since the theories were laid out and Bell worked it out well practically into commercial products for phone lines. No quantum effects (nanoscale functional structures are unlikely, and that would be a different story to signal transmission in IEMs). Noise can be linked to metal heterojunctions and poor use of solders - something that can be fixed in good simple cables, but perhaps can be tangibly better in expensive cables, but never demonstrated by cable companies.

A great question about 1% - at this level, the alloy of close metals, like gold and silver, still has conductivity only ca. 20 lower than pure metal (which is not a significant factor), while gold-silver 50-50 at% alloy is more than 6 times less conductive and silly to use for the cables (similar to the use of palladium, rhodium and other metals in alloys). So, in this example, 1% is reasonable science employed by marketing- (this 1% does not make any positive difference in this alloy, but not very detrimental, and then, understandably, sounding expensive and advanced for up-pricing...)

Thick copper cables can be "louder" because of their better resistivity (very simple physics/math). Only ca. 5% difference in conductivity between silver and copper cables of the same diameter, while just 20% thicker copper cables (and copper is much less expensive to make thicker cables) is ca. 35% more conductive (the scaling with the thickness is of the power of 2). This difference can be easily picked up using low-resistance transducers (as per "rule of 8" in relative differences in conductivities).

Why the difference then, if not in signal transmission science, - it is clearly in psychoacoustics: e.g. nice cables surely feeling better. For instance, I can easily convince myself that my blue cables are euphonic/musical/(anything else from any marketing brochure), and the perceived difference is absolutely real for me, that is how brain operates. Further to it, related ego validation comes for reinforcement: if it is expensive - it must be good/better, especially since others can perceive it.

Pharaphrasing you - at the core of the perception of cable differences is the carefully created and reinforced perceived value for consumers based on marketing and peer validation.

That is why even mentioning of blind tests is strongly chastised and often censored here - not to shatter psychoacoustic illusions and to keep consumers happy.

If I do not see my beatiful blue cable - I can't turn on my imagination about all its great virtues anymore .

Blind testing simply removes all the marketing "everything", with only the basic underlying science remaining, leaving then "proverbial kings" in their expensive cloth naked - definitely not the feeling to experience in a hobby.

I will be really happy to be wrong here - if blind testing is done - please educate me.

 

[jwilliamhurst]

That is why even mentioning of blind tests is strongly chastised and often censored here

I really appreciated your post but I do believe this part to be incorrect. Just my opinion but I don’t think that is what this thread is about. Blind tests are great and I think anyone else here would agree but it’s not always the easiest to achieve. It’s a hobby with many different lives from all over the world. Not everything is so black and white.

 

[Natesdailies]

Yay Venom (2023) and Yatono 8W arrived

Thanks @So11rek and @fiascogarcia

Been a while since I've compared cables. Brain burning XE6 with stock (new version XE6 before switching to Yatono)

 

[Smirk 24]

I really like your comments, and I learned a lot about business, marketing and humans that I greatly appreciate.
So I dare to address 3., as science questions.
The science of electrical signal transmission is completely (and it is a strong statement that can be used here) understood, e.g
nothing principally new has been discovered for about almost 100 recent years since the theories were laid out and Bell worked it out well practically into commercial products for phone lines. No quantum effects (nanoscale functional structures are unlikely, and that would be a different story to signal transmission in IEMs). Noise can be linked to metal heterojunctions and poor use of solders - something that can be fixed in good simple cables, but perhaps can be tangibly better in expensive cables, but never demonstrated by cable companies.

A great question about 1% - at this level, the alloy of close metals, like gold and silver, still has conductivity only ca. 20 lower than pure metal (which is not a significant factor), while gold-silver 50-50 at% alloy is more than 6 times less conductive and silly to use for the cables (similar to the use of palladium, rhodium and other metals in alloys). So, in this example, 1% is reasonable science employed by marketing- (this 1% does not make any positive difference in this alloy, but not very detrimental, and then, understandably, sounding expensive and advanced for up-pricing...)

Thick copper cables can be "louder" because of their better resistivity (very simple physics/math). Only ca. 5% difference in conductivity between silver and copper cables of the same diameter, while just 20% thicker copper cables (and copper is much less expensive to make thicker cables) is ca. 35% more conductive (the scaling with the thickness is of the power of 2). This difference can be easily picked up using low-resistance transducers (as per "rule of 8" in relative differences in conductivities).

Why the difference then, if not in signal transmission science, - it is clearly in psychoacoustics: e.g. nice cables surely feeling better. For instance, I can easily convince myself that my blue cables are euphonic/musical/(anything else from any marketing brochure), and the perceived difference is absolutely real for me, that is how brain operates. Further to it, related ego validation comes for reinforcement: if it is expensive - it must be good/better, especially since others can perceive it.

Pharaphrasing you - at the core of the perception of cable differences is the carefully created and reinforced perceived value for consumers based on marketing and peer validation.

That is why even mentioning of blind tests is strongly chastised and often censored here - not to shatter psychoacoustic illusions and to keep consumers happy.

If I do not see my beatiful blue cable - I can't turn on my imagination about all its great virtues anymore .

Blind testing simply removes all the marketing "everything", with only the basic underlying science remaining, leaving then "proverbial kings" in their expensive cloth naked - definitely not the feeling to experience in a hobby.

I will be really happy to be wrong here - if blind testing is done - please educate me.

I, for one, would love to see a blind test. Why don’t you set one up and share the methodology + results with us?

 

[jwilliamhurst]

Yay Venom (2023) and Yatono 8W arrived


Thanks @So11rek and @fiascogarcia



Been a while since I've compared cables. Brain burning XE6 with stock (new version XE6 before switching to Yatono)

Looking forward to your thoughts and impressions.

 

[Kweebs]

Actually managed to get my hands on a pair of Radon 6 (borrowed from a friend). Felt like I have made a mistake because now I can't seem to go back to my own average sounding SE215. Was really tempted to just snatch and run right there.

 

[nihalsharma]

Actually managed to get my hands on a pair of Radon 6 (borrowed from a friend). Felt like I have made a mistake because now I can't seem to go back to my own average sounding SE215. Was really tempted to just snatch and run right there.

That’s really a big big mistake. Last you were asking for a 400-500usd iem and now this.

Trying to understand how an sp3000, which was launched October 2022 and still retails for €4299, can now be found in the classifieds for €2500 (depreciation of 42%). Not that I'm complaining, since I've scored some sweet deals through the classifieds section. But the early adopters amongst us must be either comfortable with losing a lot of money, or somehow getting major discounts on retail price. But even if you could get say 20% discount off retail, you'd still be losing around €900 by reselling within the year to chase the next upgrade. Is this business as usual in this amazing hobby or am I missing something?

This is nothing. I bought a new unit of Astell&Kern SP2KT @2500usd with very high hopes that it would be my end game dap. But it turned out a real disastrous player and I had to sell it off at half price just after 2-3 months. There was a regret for couple of days when I sold it off but moved on. I don’t think this hobby goes by a logic of how much money you are going to lose. And thanks to the pre-loved classified market that a lot of us are able to find very good deals.

 

[RonaldS86]

Actually managed to get my hands on a pair of Radon 6 (borrowed from a friend). Felt like I have made a mistake because now I can't seem to go back to my own average sounding SE215. Was really tempted to just snatch and run right there.

At least now you know what you want

 

[lllEvo]

I really like your comments, and I learned a lot about business, marketing and humans that I greatly appreciate.
So I dare to address 3., as science questions.
The science of electrical signal transmission is completely (and it is a strong statement that can be used here) understood, e.g
nothing principally new has been discovered for about almost 100 recent years since the theories were laid out and Bell worked it out well practically into commercial products for phone lines. No quantum effects (nanoscale functional structures are unlikely, and that would be a different story to signal transmission in IEMs). Noise can be linked to metal heterojunctions and poor use of solders - something that can be fixed in good simple cables, but perhaps can be tangibly better in expensive cables, but never demonstrated by cable companies.

A great question about 1% - at this level, the alloy of close metals, like gold and silver, still has conductivity only ca. 20 lower than pure metal (which is not a significant factor), while gold-silver 50-50 at% alloy is more than 6 times less conductive and silly to use for the cables (similar to the use of palladium, rhodium and other metals in alloys). So, in this example, 1% is reasonable science employed by marketing- (this 1% does not make any positive difference in this alloy, but not very detrimental, and then, understandably, sounding expensive and advanced for up-pricing...)

Thick copper cables can be "louder" because of their better resistivity (very simple physics/math). Only ca. 5% difference in conductivity between silver and copper cables of the same diameter, while just 20% thicker copper cables (and copper is much less expensive to make thicker cables) is ca. 35% more conductive (the scaling with the thickness is of the power of 2). This difference can be easily picked up using low-resistance transducers (as per "rule of 8" in relative differences in conductivities).

Why the difference then, if not in signal transmission science, - it is clearly in psychoacoustics: e.g. nice cables surely feeling better. For instance, I can easily convince myself that my blue cables are euphonic/musical/(anything else from any marketing brochure), and the perceived difference is absolutely real for me, that is how brain operates. Further to it, related ego validation comes for reinforcement: if it is expensive - it must be good/better, especially since others can perceive it.

Pharaphrasing you - at the core of the perception of cable differences is the carefully created and reinforced perceived value for consumers based on marketing and peer validation.

That is why even mentioning of blind tests is strongly chastised and often censored here - not to shatter psychoacoustic illusions and to keep consumers happy.

If I do not see my beatiful blue cable - I can't turn on my imagination about all its great virtues anymore .

Blind testing simply removes all the marketing "everything", with only the basic underlying science remaining, leaving then "proverbial kings" in their expensive cloth naked - definitely not the feeling to experience in a hobby.

I will be really happy to be wrong here - if blind testing is done - please educate me.

On some days when I was cable rolling between a bunch of same major component (copper, silver) 8 wires chifi or from EA or what not, I really do have a hard time hearing the difference, I mean I even hear songs differently when I initially wake up compared to during the day, or about to sleep, on some days some iems become harsher and on some other days bass becomes heavier, some days cable rolling is super fun and I hear changes and on some days they suddenly sounded similar.

That being said, I still had cables that were around 10years+ sticking around to remind me that was not the case, I stuck my original westone um3x cable to my Mentor and no matter which day or how crappy my ears were at the time, the old cable simply made my Mentor way way worst in every aspect possible.

I wholly believe that, using an upgraded cable in general has a mixture of both biological and technical aspects, so your brains, your eardrums and the actual material all plays the part. The material provides a constant change to sound, the eardrums sometimes work better on some days than other to hear the actual improvements made by the cables, and the brain is the icing on top. I think doing a blind test is not as effective as doing a graph test, since we're trying to prove the scientific aspects of how cable materials and composition affect sound here. Would love to see someone post a graph test with a bunch of cables with the same iem, maybe that could give us more insight into this conversation.

 

[MatW]

Trying to understand how an sp3000, which was launched October 2022 and still retails for €4299, can now be found in the classifieds for €2500 (depreciation of 42%). Not that I'm complaining, since I've scored some sweet deals through the classifieds section. But the early adopters amongst us must be either comfortable with losing a lot of money, or somehow getting major discounts on retail price. But even if you could get say 20% discount off retail, you'd still be losing around €900 by reselling within the year to chase the next upgrade. Is this business as usual in this amazing hobby or am I missing something?

Everything continuously depreciates in this hobby, often fast, due to the continuous influx of new releases and people’s desire to “upgrade”, even if the new stuff isn’t necessarily better. Resale value for DAPs is especially bad. Case in point, you’d be hard pressed to get 25% of the retail price for a used SP2K, while it is still a fantastic player, esp when used with Roon.

So yes, welcome to this hobby, be prepared to lose a lot of money, and enjoy the music.

Edit: I see you have an endgame headphone setup. Probably best to stick with that!