The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:41 PM Post #5,296 of 88,279
Yeah I would say a bit bigger but there was a lot more air in the stage too so definitely less intimate. I know some felt OG was good enough and don't note much of a difference - for me, flipping back and forth between them, it was an incredibly obvious difference - less bass vs OG but more than enough for my taste, plus as I've noted before, a trade off I would happily take for the overall upgrades elsewhere. Sadly though, they are no longer with me and were shipped off today!

As an aside - Z1R, Odin and 1A for sale?! 1A doesn't suprise me but the others do! Well maybe not Z1R but Odin?!

Yea I'd trade a bit of bass too for a bit more air and more stage, for sure. So seems a much nicer upgrade on the Pros!

Ah well the sales! WM1A just not hitting the spot, especially after MAX which is just epic. Honestly not listening to Odin and Z1R much at all - and that is a lot of money not being used, so best to list them and recycle back into the hobby at a later date. I fully expect the X to surpass both too (due in two days!).
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:47 PM Post #5,297 of 88,279
Astute observation. If you think about it like a scale, with 0 being melophiles (0 concern for gear), 10 being gearophiles (0 concern for music), and 5 being audiophiles (even split), then you're leaning towards 3, maybe 4 on the scale, because the things you speak of - tone/timbre/emotional connection are really music-related metrics. The closer you get to 10, the more important the gear's technicalities become.

I'd probably place myself at 4.5-5, because I care as much about emotional connection as I do technicalities, but I also lose some emotional connection if the technical quality doesn't hit a certain level (about as much as I do if the tonality is off).

As a water cooler discussion point for a Monday, where do you guys pin yourselves on the scale?
This is a conversation I had a ton with audiophiles in Singapore, and I think it largely depends on how you'd segregate what constitutes a technical quality vs. a musical one.

For example, as @ranfan alluded to, venues are part of the music, and they'd traditionally tie into the technical aspects of stage expansion and imaging. He also mentioned that emphasising it too much can take away from the warmth and allure - both musical or emotional aspects - of more intimate arrangements. At the same time, though, it can be argued that a huge stage is a crucial musical component for genres like rock. The Jolene I just reviewed is a perfect example, where its massive, arena-like stage is key in selling the enveloping scope and atmosphere of a rock concert. So, depending on genre, a huge soundstage wouldn't automatically fall into the technical camp, as it has links to the emotional side as well.

Another would be dynamic range; a quality so technical, it's most commonly seen as a number on a specs sheet. I believe - perhaps a smidgeon below tone or timbre - it's actually the 2nd-or-3rd most crucial component to an IEM's musicality or emotion. An example would be the Moondrop Starfield I mentioned some time ago. It has a very safe, soft, natural tone, but it's so dynamically flat, that I get bored within a half-hour of listening to it. No emotional connection was forged, despite it theoretically scoring highly in tone. So, the missing emotional component here is actually technical in nature. Bringing it all the way back to the U12t, it shares a very similar tone overall to the A6t. But, it's the former's superior dynamics that enhance the engagement or connection I feel to a track like Snarky Puppy's Go, where I can hear the layers building over each other dramatically towards the climax.

So, it really is the fuzziest Venn diagram in the world. :D I think, rather than a dichotomous system where adding to one takes away from the other, I think some sort of system that incorporates priority would be more ideal. Something like Crin's system where tone and technique have their own grades is a bit more apt as well, I reckon. But, as always, it's an interesting thing to ponder on Watercooler Monday. :wink:

Yes I agree with that. But there's DD bass and there's DD bass, if you know what I mean? You can get incredibly detailed, fast, naunced and clean DD bass, but it'll cost you. EE EVO is probably the best bass I've heard in any IEM or headphone, though could be a bit much for some, especially if you don't use neutral sources and wide bore tips. EXT is likely highly technical and refined too. Both cost close to or just over $3K. The best DD bass I've heard for ~$1K is IE 900. In fact that's probably touching distance to the $3K IEMs, so you really need to be invested in both the technical excellence and tonal balance of the multi kilobuck IEMs to make sense of that type of purchase.

Like you say later on, you get the best of both worlds with Traillii, and probably the new VE IEMs too. But there's probably only a handful of IEMs that can pull off world class technicalities with a musical tonality, and like I said above, they're going to cost you. Ultimately beyond a certain point (probably around $1K nowadays), what you're really paying huge money for is technical improvements, so if you don't need $3K-level technicalities, your wallet will thank you. It's much easier to find great tonality and musicality for reasonable pricing.

I think many of us (myself included) use the term 'critical listening' as a blanket term for listening exclusively without doing other things at the same time. I often listen to music while working, or walking, or typing on HF like I am now. That's what I call casual listening, and it's probably how I listen more often than not. When I'm in bed or in a recliner and close my eyes to focus only on the music and take in all its nuances and emotion, that's probably better described as focused listening. Critical listening should really only be used to describe listening for flaws/composition/analysis, or when listening to music as an end to a means to assessing the gear.

Depends on whether you like the sub bass rolloff' or more forward/energetic treble. I must admit when I saw that Dark Sky treble spike I winced. If it sounds anything like it looks, alot of music is going to be quite edgy and borderline piercing. But if you're into that sort of thing, all good. I think the IE 900's middle/upper treble emphasis is less fatiguing, and fits in with the overall beautiful tuning of that IEM as a whole.

My IE 900 companion album tonight:

I think I've literally lost the ability to casual listen. :D If I don't have to pay attention to what the IEM's doing, I'm thinking about what the musician's doing, or what decisions the mix engineer had to make, or what decisions led to certain sounds, etc. To me, though, I think that adds to the experience. In film, I've often heard that once you know how a movie's made, the magic goes away. I actually think it's the complete opposite. When you know how something's made, and you know how difficult the simplest-looking (or, in this case, simplest-sounding) things can be, then you'll automatically have a deeper appreciation for it. Like, if you guys knew how tough it is to get even the most average-sounding mix together... :p

But, yeah, I'd agree that critical listening is a rather unrealistic scenario. Even when I'm trying to meticulously mix or master a track, I've found it's most effective to just relax and listen to it like you'd listen to any track. Getting too in-your-head will only needlessly exacerbate things and lead you to make changes that weren't necessary in the first place. You can even overcorrect and create a problem that wasn't there to begin with. So, yeah, I liked focused listening much better.

I'll also follow your lead and share what I've been listening to for the past couple weeks. I can't wait for their next record next year:

 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:49 PM Post #5,298 of 88,279
Oh nice, bookmarked - thank you.
There's a handful of reviewers that use the same tool while having a different library of measurements. So at the very bottom you'll find links to Bad Guy Good Audio Reviews, Precogvision, etcetera, while Crinacle uses the original version if I'm not mistaken. For comparison reasons do note that some of them align measurements at 500 Hz while most do it at 1 kHz. This is a good thing to adjust if you're really interested in these things. I normally use 1kHz as that seems to be the norm. Couldn't get that to work while pasting Super* Review's link though. See what happens with the bass for the Zen and Pro when doing this as an example.

drftr
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:51 PM Post #5,299 of 88,279
Yea I'd trade a bit of bass too for a bit more air and more stage, for sure. So seems a much nicer upgrade on the Pros!

Ah well the sales! WM1A just not hitting the spot, especially after MAX which is just epic. Honestly not listening to Odin and Z1R much at all - and that is a lot of money not being used, so best to list them and recycle back into the hobby at a later date. I fully expect the X to surpass both too (due in two days!).

Look forward to your impressions on the X, nearly there!

Yeah you are right and I should definitely do the same, a few in the firing line!
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 5:06 PM Post #5,300 of 88,279
Nov 29, 2021 at 5:10 PM Post #5,302 of 88,279
The FuSang/Fabled Sound is quite a unique listen, there is a sense of realism/body about it that's entirely different from other IEMs. The MEST Indigo was very similar also, I preferred the latter tuning by a big margin though.
Was? Have you moved it on? 😳
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 5:14 PM Post #5,305 of 88,279
With the FuSang being too safe at both extremes, or...?

drftr

The FuSang to me has a very weird upper mid range/lower treble tuning, it cuts out a lot of it, personally wasn't a fan myself but I know people who love it. It's worth checking out. I do think the MEST Indigo is the better IEM and costs far less though.
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 5:43 PM Post #5,310 of 88,279
It def appears that dark sky will have more energy in the upper mids and treble than ie900. The dark sky appears to have more sub bass roll off and more mid bass presence, you will hear this I would think by looking at the graphs.

I think they would compliment one another

Hope not too much treble energy, IE900 have always been just a touch below my level of tolerance - but in a sweet spot where the treble is addictive.

I guess it depends on what is un-tolerable to you. Some it’s upper or lower mids, some it’s lower treble and some upper treble and some can’t have a lot of sub or mid bass, etc…
Because we all hear differently, it’s best to know what area or areas of the FR can cause you fatigue and go from there. But even then, it won’t really tell you how it sounds, just may give an idea, it’s like a road map, the map doesn’t show you the sights and sounds and smells but it tells you how to get from point a to b, a suppose a fr graph can be like a map in that manner…I don’t know, this is just my opinion. Haha

From how I'm reading the stars:

- While the IE900 extends slightly lower the Darks Sky is slightly more mid-bass focussed. (Un)fortunately you can't tell from the charts the quality of sub-bass and sub-bass so it's most likely down to preference.

- The IE900 seems to have a milder difference between male and female vocals while the Dark Sky might border shoutyness on female vocals, and likely be less unforgiving with s and t sounds, hats, etcetera.

- I think the IE has quite some brightness up top as well, but both have ample compensation in low frequencies so it may be balanced out just the way you like it.

- You're not likely to hear the 15 kHz peak on the IE900 as being excessive.
I'm not particularly sensitive to treble so a little bit of energy up top never bothered me. I know Alex has some slight sensitivity in this area, although he didn't find it fatiguing, but YMMV. In direct A-B sessions between the IE900 & Dark Sky the latter could come off a little bright, with the former coming off as a bit veiled. It's a mater of preference; I could see myself using the Dark Sky during the day with the IE900 reserved for evening/late night sessions.
 

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