The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Nov 29, 2021 at 3:05 PM Post #5,281 of 89,505
Ok as I continue my learning, I've been curious to get a better understanding of graphs/frequency response - totally understand they only tell part of the story etc but interesting to know that part.

I plotted IE900 and Dark Sky as per below and added a text box for each frequency section so I can easily see where each component sits. I find it interesting the fluctuations between them once it hits upper mids. Am I reading it right to think DS will actually have more treble than IE900?! Also, would the variance in both sub bass and mid bass be much considering how closely they graph? - again, I understand (I think!) tuning differences will apply but broadly speaking.

It def appears that dark sky will have more energy in the upper mids and treble than ie900. The dark sky appears to have more sub bass roll off and more mid bass presence, you will hear this I would think by looking at the graphs.

I think they would compliment one another
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 3:13 PM Post #5,282 of 89,505
It def appears that dark sky will have more energy in the upper mids and treble than ie900. The dark sky appears to have more sub bass roll off and more mid bass presence, you will hear this I would think by looking at the graphs.

I think they would compliment one another

Hope not too much treble energy, IE900 have always been just a touch below my level of tolerance - but in a sweet spot where the treble is addictive.
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 3:16 PM Post #5,283 of 89,505
Hope not too much treble energy, IE900 have always been just a touch below my level of tolerance - but in a sweet spot where the treble is addictive.
I guess it depends on what is un-tolerable to you. Some it’s upper or lower mids, some it’s lower treble and some upper treble and some can’t have a lot of sub or mid bass, etc…
Because we all hear differently, it’s best to know what area or areas of the FR can cause you fatigue and go from there. But even then, it won’t really tell you how it sounds, just may give an idea, it’s like a road map, the map doesn’t show you the sights and sounds and smells but it tells you how to get from point a to b, a suppose a fr graph can be like a map in that manner…I don’t know, this is just my opinion. Haha
 
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Nov 29, 2021 at 3:26 PM Post #5,284 of 89,505
I guess it depends on what is un-tolerable to you. Some it’s upper or lower mids, some it’s lower treble and some upper treble and some can’t have a lot of sub or mid bass, etc…
Because we all hear differently, it’s best to know what area or areas of the FR can cause you fatigue and go from there. But even then, it won’t really tell you how it sounds, just may give an idea, it’s like a road map, the map doesn’t show you the sights and sounds and smells but it tells you how to get from point a to b, a suppose a fr graph can be like a map in that manner…I don’t know, this is just my opinion. Haha

Yes great advice, thanks and all sounds very logical - I like the map analogy!
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 3:36 PM Post #5,285 of 89,505
Bought a new memory card for the new M6 Pro. It was an Amazon BF special. $109 for a 1T SanDisk Ultra micro card. Amazon always puts memory cards on sale for BF.
Spent most of the day filling the card with HiRez music and its only about half full. Got some more music from BandCamp that I picked up from this thread.
Still breaking in M6 Pro and Dunu Zen and SA6. The Dunus had not been properly broken in as they were purchased prior to installing my breakin rig. M6 pro is sounding like a winner. No more over detail . High freqs are smoothed out. And its only Monday!!


Thanks guys.
 
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Nov 29, 2021 at 3:45 PM Post #5,286 of 89,505
Ok as I continue my learning, I've been curious to get a better understanding of graphs/frequency response - totally understand they only tell part of the story etc but interesting to know that part.

I plotted IE900 and Dark Sky as per below and added a text box for each frequency section so I can easily see where each component sits. I find it interesting the fluctuations between them once it hits upper mids. Am I reading it right to think DS will actually have more treble than IE900?! Also, would the variance in both sub bass and mid bass be much considering how closely they graph? - again, I understand (I think!) tuning differences will apply but broadly speaking.

graph.jpg

F-Audio has much more presence/forwardness, Senn has much more air/zing. I personally wouldn't drop $1K+ on either as they have both way too wonky looking FR for me at that kind of price point.
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 3:50 PM Post #5,287 of 89,505
Bought a new memory card for the new M6 Pro. It was an Amazon BF special. $109 for a 1T SanDisk Ultra micro card. Amazon always puts memory cards on sale for BF.
Spent most of the day filling the card with HiRez music and its only about half full. Got some more music from BandCamp that I picked up from this thread.
Still breaking in M6 Pro and Dunu Zen and SA6. The Dunus had not been properly broken in as they were purchased prior to installing my breakin rig. M6 pro is sounding like a winner. No more over detail . High freqs are smoothed out. And its only Monday!!


Thanks guys.

That's a great price - I've been keeping an eye on Amazon UK for a 1TB card, didn't go down that low unfortunately. I have 2 already but with a new DAP incoming, I want another!
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:13 PM Post #5,288 of 89,505
From how I'm reading the stars:

- While the IE900 extends slightly lower the Darks Sky is slightly more mid-bass focussed. (Un)fortunately you can't tell from the charts the quality of sub-bass and sub-bass so it's most likely down to preference.

- The IE900 seems to have a milder difference between male and female vocals while the Dark Sky might border shoutyness on female vocals, and likely be less unforgiving with s and t sounds, hats, etcetera.

- I think the IE has quite some brightness up top as well, but both have ample compensation in low frequencies so it may be balanced out just the way you like it.

- You're not likely to hear the 15 kHz peak on the IE900 as being excessive.

In general (and a huuuge FWIW):

- Single DD IEMs are either notoriously hard to tune from the upper-mids and higher and/or driver limitations are playing a part, often with softer materials not extending far enough (early treble roll-off: Zen) and harder materials often being a bit brighter/harsher up top (noticed by some but definitely not all in FD7 and Turii).

- I can probably safely claim that nobody on this rock has read as many IEM reviews over the past month as me, as with zero access to any IEMs preparing is all I could do. I tried to make those reviews educational reads though and because I was wondering whether looking at FR charts would provide a shortcut for my pre-selection process, for every single review I read I ALWAYS had Crin's charts open in another browser window to see whether I could see reviewers' remarks being backed up by the charts. Since for myself I'm allergic for having anything too much (think bass boosts, forward/shouty vocals, treble boosts, and any very apparent cut-outs including early roll-offs) after perhaps reading 500 reviews (?) I have learned that on average reviewers are discounting IEMs when the FR starting at 1 kHz hits above Crin's target curve at any specific place. When reading 10 reviews for an IEM 7-8 reviewers would have similar remarks about those "offenses" while for 2-3 of them it was absolutely perfect. With myself striving for avoiding "anything too much" if I see charts like for the IE900 or Dark Sky I lose interest (possibly too soon), while a Zen Pro would stay on my research list. Remember: I'm extremely limited in being able to audition anything for the next half year and may have to go for a blind buy or wait until eternity. As such I want to avoid as much risk as possible. This is completely different to most of you here, so while I have taken IEMs off my list based on charts alone YOU don't have to do anything absurd as this and simply listen, listen, listen.

- From the same "research" I think I have learned that Crin's charts have meaning between 200 Hz and 1 kHz as well but in a different way. First, crossing his target line sub 1 kHz from reading I think will lead to lesser allergic reactions. But how far the actual FR is above/below his target is all relative to what happens in the bass and treble. First I thought that if the FR was below his target note weight and body would be greatly influenced, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sure it can be but it doesn't seem to be a rule at all and is depending on how the tuning is balanced out over the whole range among other things. For the mids I have noted that if sub-bass rolls off quite fast around 200-250 Hz and then stays flat until 1 kHz this more often than not is associated with very clean and detailed mids, while if the mid-bass extends all the way to 400-500 Hz before coming down the sound is often considered to have muddied mids. Again, this says absolutely nothing about quality. I mean, look at the Traillii that comes down very late from mid-bass to mids and apparently one of the best regardless. Another great example calling this exercise pure BS is the UM Mason FuSang which has an exceptionally slow roll-off from mid-bass to mids of which I might have said it can't even sound nearly correct. Turns out it has some of the very best mids possible! So be careful with reading too much into the mids.

- Sub-bass and mid-bass are very different to read from charts as well. From reading I think I have found out for myself that if sub-bass hits more than +5 dB over Crin's flat target it will most likely be too much for me and I think I would be happiest with a +3 dB bass shelf in the sub-bass, followed by a slow roll-off to that 200-250 Hz range. Also BA bass seems to be quite okay with a +5 dB max while a DD setup might be too much already even though they measure the same. I assume this is because of note weight and decay but I'm quite possibly wrong on this. While when setting out I mostly focussed on Crin's target for sub-bass and mid-bass as well I now tend to think that such a reading is not supportive enough to reach a truly engaging sound because of the lack of weight and balance. Mind you: Reference monitors might have a much leaner, faster, and more correct bass because of this (their raison d'être after all), but whether that's enough to create a "complete" reproduction across the FR that is still consider musical I'm not so sure any longer.

Repeating myself once more: A FR chart tells you exactly NOTHING about the quality of the presentation. But you may be able to spot potential allergy issues and then read up a bit to see whether that's confirmed by people of whom you know where they come from reference-wise. And still you may disagree with their assessment because of different sonical preferences, other music preferences, other allergies, the rest of your reproduction chain, etcetera.

All in all I think reading reviews, staring at the star-- sorry, charts, reveals that as a group we're not exactly crazy and on average quite nail it. But that perfect average may not reflect your preferences at all and become useless because of that. Still very educational and it leads to great interaction with people that are in the same boat, even while most likely being on a different course.

drftr
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:18 PM Post #5,289 of 89,505
Bought a new memory card for the new M6 Pro. It was an Amazon BF special. $109 for a 1T SanDisk Ultra micro card. Amazon always puts memory cards on sale for BF.
Spent most of the day filling the card with HiRez music and its only about half full. Got some more music from BandCamp that I picked up from this thread.
Still breaking in M6 Pro and Dunu Zen and SA6. The Dunus had not been properly broken in as they were purchased prior to installing my breakin rig. M6 pro is sounding like a winner. No more over detail . High freqs are smoothed out. And its only Monday!!


Thanks guys.
Hope you have more luck than me with the Ultra's as I had 2 fakes a few months ago (recognized and taken back my Amazon). However, I had 256MB ones and I'd think 1TB would be harder to fake. But I for one will not buy SD cards from Amazon any longer as there's dozens of similar reports.

drftr
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:23 PM Post #5,290 of 89,505
It wouldn't surprise me to find there was a correlation between folks who place themselves just under 5 on your scale above and those who tend to prefer dynamic drivers as inherent in DD sound is a sacrifice of raw technical chops in favor of superior timbre and more natural sound.
Yes I agree with that. But there's DD bass and there's DD bass, if you know what I mean? You can get incredibly detailed, fast, naunced and clean DD bass, but it'll cost you. EE EVO is probably the best bass I've heard in any IEM or headphone, though could be a bit much for some, especially if you don't use neutral sources and wide bore tips. EXT is likely highly technical and refined too. Both cost close to or just over $3K. The best DD bass I've heard for ~$1K is IE 900. In fact that's probably touching distance to the $3K IEMs, so you really need to be invested in both the technical excellence and tonal balance of the multi kilobuck IEMs to make sense of that type of purchase.
I must say I feel I sit in a similar zone too - torn on 3 or 4 and my recent enjoyment of buds has helped shaped that, likewise my overall preference for single DDs in IEMs.
Like you say later on, you get the best of both worlds with Traillii, and probably the new VE IEMs too. But there's probably only a handful of IEMs that can pull off world class technicalities with a musical tonality, and like I said above, they're going to cost you. Ultimately beyond a certain point (probably around $1K nowadays), what you're really paying huge money for is technical improvements, so if you don't need $3K-level technicalities, your wallet will thank you. It's much easier to find great tonality and musicality for reasonable pricing.
As an academic (though not in music), and as someone who has dabbled in doing (amateur) sound design, I sometimes derive enjoyment from piecing together *how* something is made. In my experience, this can really only be done effectively if doing what I imagine you're referring to as a "critical listen". This is definitely not how I mostly experience music in part because it requires all of my attention and my job keeps me occupied as is haha. However, I just wanted to provide a perspective where critical listening can make sense as the objective of the experience. As we like to say around these parts, YMMV :)
I think many of us (myself included) use the term 'critical listening' as a blanket term for listening exclusively without doing other things at the same time. I often listen to music while working, or walking, or typing on HF like I am now. That's what I call casual listening, and it's probably how I listen more often than not. When I'm in bed or in a recliner and close my eyes to focus only on the music and take in all its nuances and emotion, that's probably better described as focused listening. Critical listening should really only be used to describe listening for flaws/composition/analysis, or when listening to music as an end to a means to assessing the gear.
I think they would compliment one another
Depends on whether you like the sub bass rolloff' or more forward/energetic treble. I must admit when I saw that Dark Sky treble spike I winced. If it sounds anything like it looks, alot of music is going to be quite edgy and borderline piercing. But if you're into that sort of thing, all good. I think the IE 900's middle/upper treble emphasis is less fatiguing, and fits in with the overall beautiful tuning of that IEM as a whole.

My IE 900 companion album tonight:

images - 2021-11-29T232045.628.jpeg

https://album.link/za/i/1480433371
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:28 PM Post #5,291 of 89,505
From how I'm reading the stars:

- While the IE900 extends slightly lower the Darks Sky is slightly more mid-bass focussed. (Un)fortunately you can't tell from the charts the quality of sub-bass and sub-bass so it's most likely down to preference.

- The IE900 seems to have a milder difference between male and female vocals while the Dark Sky might border shoutyness on female vocals, and likely be less unforgiving with s and t sounds, hats, etcetera.

- I think the IE has quite some brightness up top as well, but both have ample compensation in low frequencies so it may be balanced out just the way you like it.

- You're not likely to hear the 15 kHz peak on the IE900 as being excessive.

In general (and a huuuge FWIW):

- Single DD IEMs are either notoriously hard to tune from the upper-mids and higher and/or driver limitations are playing a part, often with softer materials not extending far enough (early treble roll-off: Zen) and harder materials often being a bit brighter/harsher up top (noticed by some but definitely not all in FD7 and Turii).

- I can probably safely claim that nobody on this rock has read as many IEM reviews over the past month as me, as with zero access to any IEMs preparing is all I could do. I tried to make those reviews educational reads though and because I was wondering whether looking at FR charts would provide a shortcut for my pre-selection process, for every single review I read I ALWAYS had Crin's charts open in another browser window to see whether I could see reviewers' remarks being backed up by the charts. Since for myself I'm allergic for having anything too much (think bass boosts, forward/shouty vocals, treble boosts, and any very apparent cut-outs including early roll-offs) after perhaps reading 500 reviews (?) I have learned that on average reviewers are discounting IEMs when the FR starting at 1 kHz hits above Crin's target curve at any specific place. When reading 10 reviews for an IEM 7-8 reviewers would have similar remarks about those "offenses" while for 2-3 of them it was absolutely perfect. With myself striving for avoiding "anything too much" if I see charts like for the IE900 or Dark Sky I lose interest (possibly too soon), while a Zen Pro would stay on my research list. Remember: I'm extremely limited in being able to audition anything for the next half year and may have to go for a blind buy or wait until eternity. As such I want to avoid as much risk as possible. This is completely different to most of you here, so while I have taken IEMs off my list based on charts alone YOU don't have to do anything absurd as this and simply listen, listen, listen.

- From the same "research" I think I have learned that Crin's charts have meaning between 200 Hz and 1 kHz as well but in a different way. First, crossing his target line sub 1 kHz from reading I think will lead to lesser allergic reactions. But how far the actual FR is above/below his target is all relative to what happens in the bass and treble. First I thought that if the FR was below his target note weight and body would be greatly influenced, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm sure it can be but it doesn't seem to be a rule at all and is depending on how the tuning is balanced out over the whole range among other things. For the mids I have noted that if sub-bass rolls off quite fast around 200-250 Hz and then stays flat until 1 kHz this more often than not is associated with very clean and detailed mids, while if the mid-bass extends all the way to 400-500 Hz before coming down the sound is often considered to have muddied mids. Again, this says absolutely nothing about quality. I mean, look at the Traillii that comes down very late from mid-bass to mids and apparently one of the best regardless. Another great example calling this exercise pure BS is the UM Mason FuSang which has an exceptionally slow roll-off from mid-bass to mids of which I might have said it can't even sound nearly correct. Turns out it has some of the very best mids possible! So be careful with reading too much into the mids.

- Sub-bass and mid-bass are very different to read from charts as well. From reading I think I have found out for myself that if sub-bass hits more than +5 dB over Crin's flat target it will most likely be too much for me and I think I would be happiest with a +3 dB bass shelf in the sub-bass, followed by a slow roll-off to that 200-250 Hz range. Also BA bass seems to be quite okay with a +5 dB max while a DD setup might be too much already even though they measure the same. I assume this is because of note weight and decay but I'm quite possibly wrong on this. While when setting out I mostly focussed on Crin's target for sub-bass and mid-bass as well I now tend to think that such a reading is not supportive enough to reach a truly engaging sound because of the lack of weight and balance. Mind you: Reference monitors might have a much leaner, faster, and more correct bass because of this (their raison d'être after all), but whether that's enough to create a "complete" reproduction across the FR that is still consider musical I'm not so sure any longer.

Repeating myself once more: A FR chart tells you exactly NOTHING about the quality of the presentation. But you may be able to spot potential allergy issues and then read up a bit to see whether that's confirmed by people of whom you know where they come from reference-wise. And still you may disagree with their assessment because of different sonical preferences, other music preferences, other allergies, the rest of your reproduction chain, etcetera.

All in all I think reading reviews, staring at the star-- sorry, charts, reveals that as a group we're not exactly crazy and on average quite nail it. But that perfect average may not reflect your preferences at all and become useless because of that. Still very educational and it leads to great interaction with people that are in the same boat, even while most likely being on a different course.

drftr

Thanks for that very informative post, I literally learn something every day here! Not many reviews for Dark Sky at the moment but @twister6 does comment that the uppers might be a bit much for some, but overall, I think he seemed to like them. Anyway, mine have shipped and I'll have them I would think by Thursday at the latest, so I'll soon find out.

Certainly out of the single DDs I've tried, ZEN PRO have been the most balanced - I would like to compare them on Crin graphs but not in his DB yet.
 
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Nov 29, 2021 at 4:30 PM Post #5,292 of 89,505
Thanks for that very informative post, I literally learn something every day here! Not many reviews for Dark Sky at the moment but @twister6 does comment that the uppers might be a bit much for some, but overall, I think he seemed to like them.

Certainly out of the single DDs I've tried, ZEN PRO have been the most balanced - I would like to compare them on Crin graphs but not in his DB yet.

Is the stage bigger on the Zen Pros versus the OG Zens - that was one of my big worries they were a bit intimate.
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:34 PM Post #5,293 of 89,505
Thanks for that very informative post, I literally learn something every day here! Not many reviews for Dark Sky at the moment but @twister6 does comment that the uppers might be a bit much for some, but overall, I think he seemed to like them. Anyway, mine have shipped and I'll have them I would think by Thursday at the latest, so I'll soon find out.

Certainly out of the single DDs I've tried, ZEN PRO have been the most balanced - I would like to compare them on Crin graphs but not in his DB yet.
Try this:

https://squig.link/?share=Crinacle_Neutral_Target,Dunu_Zen,Dunu_Zen_Pro

drftr
 
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Nov 29, 2021 at 4:36 PM Post #5,294 of 89,505
Is the stage bigger on the Zen Pros versus the OG Zens - that was one of my big worries they were a bit intimate.

Yeah I would say a bit bigger but there was a lot more air in the stage too so definitely less intimate. I know some felt OG was good enough and don't note much of a difference - for me, flipping back and forth between them, it was an incredibly obvious difference - less bass vs OG but more than enough for my taste, plus as I've noted before, a trade off I would happily take for the overall upgrades elsewhere. Sadly though, they are no longer with me and were shipped off today!

As an aside - Z1R, Odin and 1A for sale?! 1A doesn't suprise me but the others do! Well maybe not Z1R but Odin?!
 
Nov 29, 2021 at 4:39 PM Post #5,295 of 89,505

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