[DanielListening]

I want a Campfire KING Dorado. A DD and an eStat. Keep the ceramic and just have a gold plated nozzle. LOL

 

[Rockwell75]

I want a Campfire KING Dorado. A DD and an eStat. Keep the ceramic and just have a gold plated nozzle. LOL

Honestly I would love an IEM where the DD did bass - lower treble and a state of the art e-stat did the upper highs. I think it could be quite something.

 

[DanielListening]

I’m pretty sure it was your idea originally. I’m just in full agreement.

 

[Edric Li]

From a post in Crinacle's thread today I learned about J Gordon Holt. Holt is thought of as one of the founding fathers of the high end audio hobby and was one of the first to try and use language to describe the finer points of sound. The following definitions were taken from Holt's Audio Glossary (1990) by @Edric Li:



Reading these definitions really struck me. For the first time I see many of the different factors commonly taken under the umbrella of the term "technicalities" (resolution, definition, focus, detail, imaging, soundstaging etc.) as all contributing to the common goal of creating a fully realized, accurately positioned 3-d "phantom inage" in the mind of the listener. My overwhelming impression after listening to the Traillii on all 3 occasions was that putting them on is like stepping in to the Holodeck from Star Trek TNG. Thus my intuition that the Bird is the most technically accomplished IEM I've ever heard seems entirely consistent with the definitions above.

Edit: Also interesting from the above definitions is that what I naively think of as "instrument seperation" is actually what is really meant by "resolution".



This is fair.

Thanks for sharing it here. I keep 2 copies of the book around the house. Great reference.

On Audio Glossary (1990): In my opinion, a good audio review should use one and only one of the two vocabulary: that of a mixing/mastering engineer or that of an audiophile. Holt's glossary is a great reference for the latter vocabulary. It focuses on conveying perception about and impression of the sound, instead of trying to "reason" about elements within the sound.

On separation: the idea that "separation" is considered a factor of sound quality is pretty easy to debunk. Unless one listens to IEM/HP with crossfeed, the panning of the instruments are determined by the mix itself. It is impossible for a bad quality IEM to make a stereo recording sound more mono than it is. Better imaging/resolution will result in a clearer "separation" of the instruments, but then we should be discussion the imaging capability, not "separation" or panning.

 

[Rockwell75]

For anyone interested here is an article by Holt containing some definitions. A few of my favorites:

ballsy: Describes a system which is stentorian, punchy, and visceral.

bright, brilliant: The most often misused terms in audio, these describe the degree to which reproduced sound has a hard, crisp edge to it. Brightness relates to the energy content in the 4kHz-8kHz band. It is not related to output in the extreme-high-frequency range. All live sound has brightness; it is a problem only when it is excessive.

circularity: The paradox of subjectivity: "You can't judge a recording without reproducing
it, and you can't judge a reproducer without listening to a recording."

delicacy: The reproduction of very subtle, very faint details of musical sound, such as the fingertip-friction sounds produced when a guitar or a harp is played. See "low-level detail."

gestalt response :The evocation of a complete memory recognition by an incomplete set of sensory cues. A gestalt response to the few things an audio system does outstandingly well can make imperfect reproduction seem more realistic than it actually is.

grunge: Sonic dirt, crud, roughness. Muffled grittiness.

Holt's Laws: 1) "The better the recording, the worse the performance, and vice versa." 2) "The shriller the advertisement, the worse the product." 3) "Every component is imperfect, and every imperfection is audible."

meter man: A person who believes that measurements tell all you need to know about a component's performance. An auronihilist. Compare "mystic," "subjectivist."

motorboating: Low-frequency oscillation of an active device, producing a continuous, rapid "bupupup" sound, like a one-cylinder engine.

musical, musicality: A personal judgment as to the degree to which reproduced sound resembles live music. Real musical sound is both accurate and euphonic, consonant and dissonant.

mystic: An audiophile who attributes all currently unmeasurable sonic differences to forces beyond human understanding.

"Auronihilist"...love it. And that's not what have been the first thing in my mind when I though of "motorboating" lmao

Thanks for sharing it here. I keep 2 copies of the book around the house. Great reference.

On Audio Glossary (1990): In my opinion, a good audio review should use one and only one of the two vocabulary: that of a mixing/mastering engineer or that of an audiophile. Holt's glossary is a great reference for the latter vocabulary. It focuses on conveying perception about and impression of the sound, instead of trying to "reason" about elements within the sound.

On separation: the idea that "separation" is considered a factor of sound quality is pretty easy to debunk. Unless one listens to IEM/HP with crossfeed, the panning of the instruments are determined by the mix itself. It is impossible for a bad quality IEM to make a stereo recording sound more mono than it is. Better imaging/resolution will result in a clearer "separation" of the instruments, but then we should be discussion the imaging capability, not "separation" or panning.

Cheers man thanks for sharing it. I actually tried to find the book on Amazon after reading your post and found that used copies go for like $150.

 

[Dbriv]

J Gordon Holt was the founder of Stereophile and Harry Pearson was the founder of The Absolute Sound. The two of them have done more to advance high end sound than anybody else. Their stories are fascinating in that they both worked to actually listen to audio components instead of only going by measurements. The two magazines were fierce competitors and ended up in multiple feuds and sniping with one another. As an old man who started reading both magazines in the early eighties the birth of high end audio and the transition to headphones is fascinating. Lots of big personalities who were trying to establish their legacies. I would recommend trying to find old issues of both magazines to see how reviewing has changed. It is a roller coaster ride.

 

[Deezel177]

From a post in Crinacle's thread today I learned about J Gordon Holt. Holt is thought of as one of the founding fathers of the high end audio hobby and was one of the first to try and use language to describe the finer points of sound. The following definitions were taken from Holt's Audio Glossary (1990) by @Edric Li:



Reading these definitions really struck me. For the first time I see many of the different factors commonly taken under the umbrella of the term "technicalities" (resolution, definition, focus, detail, imaging, soundstaging etc.) as all contributing to the common goal of creating a fully realized, accurately positioned 3-d "phantom inage" in the mind of the listener. My overwhelming impression after listening to the Traillii on all 3 occasions was that putting them on is like stepping in to the Holodeck from Star Trek TNG. Thus my intuition that the Bird is the most technically accomplished IEM I've ever heard seems entirely consistent with the definitions above.

Edit: Also interesting from the above definitions is that what I naively think of as "instrument seperation" is actually what is really meant by "resolution".



This is fair.

Awesome stuff! That's exactly how I've approached every IEM I've reviewed as well. I imagine a black, blank canvas and I try to see how the IEM fills it up. You'll notice lots of words like etched, tangible, corporeal, floaty, substantial, etc. in my write-ups from that. Not having heard the Trailli, my king in that department would be the VE PHoNIX at the moment. But, yeah, I love the way Mr. Holt writes. It definitely resonates near-perfectly with how I hear music and IEMs.

Honestly I would love an IEM where the DD did bass - lower treble and a state of the art e-stat did the upper highs. I think it could be quite something.

The most prominent example of that was the AAW x Shozy Pola, which, unfortunately, received quite mixed reception. It was one of the first IEMs to have Sonion's e-stats, and I believe it suffered heavily from the power-hungry nature of that generation of drivers. I think the revised Pola 39 did a bit better. But, I don't think any of the big names have attempted a config like that ever since. The closest you'll get to that would probably be the EXT. The ELYSIUM's mid driver went all the way up to 6-7kHz, I believe, so if the EXT does the same, then it fulfils your criteria to a T.

For anyone interested here is an article by Holt containing some definitions. A few of my favorites:

ballsy: Describes a system which is stentorian, punchy, and visceral.

bright, brilliant: The most often misused terms in audio, these describe the degree to which reproduced sound has a hard, crisp edge to it. Brightness relates to the energy content in the 4kHz-8kHz band. It is not related to output in the extreme-high-frequency range. All live sound has brightness; it is a problem only when it is excessive.

circularity: The paradox of subjectivity: "You can't judge a recording without reproducing
it, and you can't judge a reproducer without listening to a recording."

delicacy: The reproduction of very subtle, very faint details of musical sound, such as the fingertip-friction sounds produced when a guitar or a harp is played. See "low-level detail."

gestalt response :The evocation of a complete memory recognition by an incomplete set of sensory cues. A gestalt response to the few things an audio system does outstandingly well can make imperfect reproduction seem more realistic than it actually is.

grunge: Sonic dirt, crud, roughness. Muffled grittiness.

Holt's Laws: 1) "The better the recording, the worse the performance, and vice versa." 2) "The shriller the advertisement, the worse the product." 3) "Every component is imperfect, and every imperfection is audible."

meter man: A person who believes that measurements tell all you need to know about a component's performance. An auronihilist. Compare "mystic," "subjectivist."

motorboating: Low-frequency oscillation of an active device, producing a continuous, rapid "bupupup" sound, like a one-cylinder engine.

musical, musicality: A personal judgment as to the degree to which reproduced sound resembles live music. Real musical sound is both accurate and euphonic, consonant and dissonant.

mystic: An audiophile who attributes all currently unmeasurable sonic differences to forces beyond human understanding.

"Auronihilist"...love it. And that's not what have been the first thing in my mind when I though of "motorboating" lmao





Cheers man thanks for sharing it. I actually tried to find the book on Amazon after reading your post and found that used copies go for like $150.

Yup, I love this guy already. We use a lot of the same terminology, just with slightly different words. My punchy/gutsy is his ballsy, my refinement/elegance is his delicacy, etc. I resonate a ton with his definition of bright as well. It's what I keep telling people who freak out whenever a graph shows a peak past 12kHz. Not only is a measurement rig likely unreliable then, but all you're gonna get is air; zero harshness. I love his definition of mystic too. To be fair, I used to be quite a bit more colourful in my reviews as well, but nothing is more cringe-inducing or eye-rolling than reading some of the trite clichés rampant in the industry.

"Wow, it feels like the artist is playing a private concert just for you."
"The accuracy of the driver takes audio to a whole new level."
"The IEM is a conductor with its drivers all playing in harmony."

For some reason, I tend to find that level of flowery-ness most in Singapore, and you get the vibe that they're all written by the same person somehow. Whether it's Singaporean brands or Singaporean dealers, it's always hilariously bad. But, hey, as long as they keep bringing in the goods and letting us audition them, I'll let those cringe-y captions slide.

 

[gLer]

I think their main drawback is actually tactility and texture. A DD can make notes feel like they're physically there and moving towards you, while BA's are typically more heard than felt. The gap can be close, to the point where only an A/B test will reveal those deficiencies. But, with everything I've heard so far, that advantage to the DD is always there.

It's in my sig For me music should be felt as well as heard. That's where the emotional connection comes from. Sometimes a simple physical sensation of a kick or strum in an unexpected part of a song is that 'wow' movement that gets the shivers going. Like a small but poignant detail in a scene from a story or film. And those are the moments that intimately connect us to the experience and live in our minds long after the song or story is done.

Honestly I would love an IEM where the DD did bass - lower treble and a state of the art e-stat did the upper highs. I think it could be quite something.

EXT (I think Daniel mentioned this already). The only IEM on my wishlist.

 

[Scubadevils]

ZEN PRO $749 for Black Friday. EST112 reduced to $349, very tempting too - I've been curious about that a while.

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

ZEN PRO $749 for Black Friday. EST112 reduced to $349, very tempting too - I've been curious about that a while.

Where do you see these prices, please?

The EST 112 is a very appealing IEM, one that's pleasant to listen to. It's slightly warm, with a laid back tuning. It has a lovely midrange, an enjoyable bass, but, unfortunately, a treble that while smooth and free from grain or peaks, rolls off very quickly. I don't really see the point of these electrostatic drivers when the tuning is such that the treble doesn't extend very high (this was one of my gripes about the Odin).

 

[Scubadevils]

Where do you see these prices, please?

The EST 112 is a very appealing IEM, one that's pleasant to listen to. It's slightly warm, with a laid back tuning. It has a lovely midrange, an enjoyable bass, but, unfortunately, a treble that while smooth and free from grain or peaks, rolls off very quickly. I don't really see the point of these electrostatic drivers when the tuning is such that the treble doesn't extend very high (this was one of my gripes about the Odin).

It was an email with details of BF prices, they may not be visible on the site yet.

Good feedback on EST112, I have heard mixed reports.

 

[Rockwell75]

It was an email with details of BF prices, they may not be visible on the site yet.

Good feedback on EST112, I have heard mixed reports.

A North American site? Musicteck doesn't seem to stock a lot of Dunu unfortunately. I shouldn't really be tempted by the Zen Pro as I have the Kato on the way an honestly neither sound like my personal ideal in terms of tuning...still though curiosity looms...and Christmas is coming lol

J Gordon Holt was the founder of Stereophile and Harry Pearson was the founder of The Absolute Sound. The two of them have done more to advance high end sound than anybody else. Their stories are fascinating in that they both worked to actually listen to audio components instead of only going by measurements. The two magazines were fierce competitors and ended up in multiple feuds and sniping with one another. As an old man who started reading both magazines in the early eighties the birth of high end audio and the transition to headphones is fascinating. Lots of big personalities who were trying to establish their legacies. I would recommend trying to find old issues of both magazines to see how reviewing has changed. It is a roller coaster ride.

Thanks for the historical perspective...it's funny how many of the same dynamics & conflicts we see today (objectivist vs. subjectivist etc. ) have been present since day 1.

Awesome stuff! That's exactly how I've approached every IEM I've reviewed as well. I imagine a black, blank canvas and I try to see how the IEM fills it up. You'll notice lots of words like etched, tangible, corporeal, floaty, substantial, etc. in my write-ups from that. Not having heard the Trailli, my king in that department would be the VE PHoNIX at the moment. But, yeah, I love the way Mr. Holt writes. It definitely resonates near-perfectly with how I hear music and IEMs.


The most prominent example of that was the AAW x Shozy Pola, which, unfortunately, received quite mixed reception. It was one of the first IEMs to have Sonion's e-stats, and I believe it suffered heavily from the power-hungry nature of that generation of drivers. I think the revised Pola 39 did a bit better. But, I don't think any of the big names have attempted a config like that ever since. The closest you'll get to that would probably be the EXT. The ELYSIUM's mid driver went all the way up to 6-7kHz, I believe, so if the EXT does the same, then it fulfils your criteria to a T.


Yup, I love this guy already. We use a lot of the same terminology, just with slightly different words. My punchy/gutsy is his ballsy, my refinement/elegance is his delicacy, etc. I resonate a ton with his definition of bright as well. It's what I keep telling people who freak out whenever a graph shows a peak past 12kHz. Not only is a measurement rig likely unreliable then, but all you're gonna get is air; zero harshness. I love his definition of mystic too. To be fair, I used to be quite a bit more colourful in my reviews as well, but nothing is more cringe-inducing or eye-rolling than reading some of the trite clichés rampant in the industry.

"Wow, it feels like the artist is playing a private concert just for you."
"The accuracy of the driver takes audio to a whole new level."
"The IEM is a conductor with its drivers all playing in harmony."

For some reason, I tend to find that level of flowery-ness most in Singapore, and you get the vibe that they're all written by the same person somehow. Whether it's Singaporean brands or Singaporean dealers, it's always hilariously bad. But, hey, as long as they keep bringing in the goods and letting us audition them, I'll let those cringe-y captions slide.

I know...love it. That list of definitions is wonderful and reading it felt like doors and windows opening up in my mind in terms of finally having a good grasp of some of these terms...not only on their own but how they all contribute together to a unity of sound. That guide will be a baseline for me moving forward.

Personally I don't care how "bad" someone's review style is so long as it is genuine-- what I'm after is emotional connection and ultimately what I'm looking for when reading about gear is some sense that it had the same effect on the writer that I'm hoping it will have on me. Balance is ideal but in a pinch I'd take someone's flowery & gushing but genuine thoughts on something over a sterile purely objectivist approach. Not to say there isn't value in the latter but it's not what I'm after personally.

It's in my sig For me music should be felt as well as heard. That's where the emotional connection comes from. Sometimes a simple physical sensation of a kick or strum in an unexpected part of a song is that 'wow' movement that gets the shivers going. Like a small but poignant detail in a scene from a story or film. And those are the moments that intimately connect us to the experience and live in our minds long after the song or story is done.

EXT (I think Daniel mentioned this already). The only IEM on my wishlist.

EXT is the IEM to beat right now. Of that I'm reasonably sure. Everything in the meantime seems like it will be a distraction for me.

In other news I should have my SR25 MKii by lunch time today

 

[Scubadevils]

Can you check the isolation too? I know it's vented but sometimes that doesn't prevent solid isolation.

I was listening in my kitchen last night, my wife and daughter chatting and music playing on the radio - while listening to music at a moderate level and with AET07 tips, I couldn't hear anything around me.

 

[gLer]

EXT is the IEM to beat right now. Of that I'm reasonably sure. Everything in the meantime seems like it will be a distraction for me.

For us DD lovers, absolutely.

 

[Scubadevils]

A North American site? Musicteck doesn't seem to stock a lot of Dunu unfortunately. I shouldn't really be tempted by the Zen Pro as I have the Kato on the way an honestly neither sound like my personal ideal in terms of tuning...still though curiosity looms...and Christmas is coming lol



Thanks for the historical perspective...it's funny how many of the same dynamics & conflicts we see today (objectivist vs. subjectivist etc. ) have been present since day 1.



I know...love it. That list of definitions is wonderful and reading it felt like doors and windows opening up in my mind in terms of finally having a good grasp of some of these terms...not only on their own but how they all contribute together to a unity of sound. That guide will be a baseline for me moving forward.

Personally I don't care how "bad" someone's review style is so long as it is genuine-- what I'm after is emotional connection and ultimately what I'm looking for when reading about gear is some sense that it had the same effect on them that I'm hoping it will have on me. Balance is ideal but in a pinch I'd take someone's flowery & gushing but genuine thoughts on something over a sterile purely objectivist approach. Not to say there isn't value in the latter but it's not what I'm after personally.



EXT is the IEM to beat right now. Of that I'm reasonably sure. Everything in the meantime seems like it will be a distraction for me.

In other news I should have my SR25 MKii by lunch time today

No from their direct store in China. Yeah Musicteck seems to have less latey, shame.