[mashuto]

Diminishing returns for sure. I agree there.

As for sources, don't forget a DAP is not just a source/dac but also an amp and a power supply. And amps and power supplies can make a big difference wherever they are used in an audio chain. Whereas I agree that all the newest DAC chips have more or less the same level of fidelity with minor tuning differences, there is much more to a DAP than just a "source." Anyway - I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just reacting a bit to things that might help the discussion.

All good. I appreciate the discussion. Though for me, amps and by extension power supplies are also way less important in the chain, specifically in relation to discussing IEMs, which do not have the same kind of power requirements as headphones or speakers and at the kind of lower volumes I tend to listen at.

So, for me, the thinking goes that yes, you might have a slightly blacker background, or slightly cleaner source, and you might be able to push your volume up a bit higher and do it without distortion, but when listening at volumes I listen at on a low powered IEM, those just arent super important. I know the goal for a lot of people is to of course optimize everything. I just havent found that its enough for me to warrant putting much investment into.

 

[fejnomit]

Might be cool to do a survey: % impact of DAP, cable, iem, tips, etc.
For me tips are make or break - they can utterly kill an IEM or make it shine. Not sure how to give that a %.

 

[Rockwell75]

I agree usually tips have smaller impact on SQ, however, if the tips fail to seal, it can be huge, make or break huge.

Yes the % I gave was assuming they fit. Tips make source, transducer and cables irrelevant if they don’t fit.

 

[DanielListening]

New toy.

 

[fejnomit]

Yes the % I gave was assuming they fit. Tips make source, transducer and cables irrelevant if they don’t fit.

More than fit I am talking about what they can do the FR

 

[Lumithium]

Might be cool to do a survey: % impact of DAP, cable, iem, tips, etc.
For me tips are make or break - they can utterly kill an IEM or make it shine. Not sure how to give that a %.

Not BCD:
80% IEM / 12% source (Source + DAC + AMP) / 5% tip / 3% cable

BCD:
70% IEM / 12% source / 15% tip / 3% cable

 

[552609]

Can I just take a moment to say that I love this forum. The community on here has got to be the most respectful and mature group of individuals, even when disagreeing, on the entire internet. Keep it up you guys.

 

[Stu Paddasso]

I want to relate a story on the cable discussion. This goes back a number of years. K & W audio in Calgary sold me interconnect cables guaranteeing sound improvement from my CD player or money back. The sound defiantly improved and I still have the cables. So I looked at my setup and saw that I was using factory cables on my VHS, audio left & right plus video. So I bought some cheap Monster Cables as I didn't think there could be much sound improvement on a single-speaker TV. I put in a VHS tape with a music score and started listening. Paused the tape and raced to change cables, jumped back in my seat turned on the tape and was totally astonished at the improvement in the video picture on my TV. So I have visual evidence that cables make a difference.

 

[Rockwell75]

It sometimes is hard when I know that posting my opinion is often in response to others who almost certainly feel differently. Can feel like some may take it as me saying they are wrong when its just not the intent. And especially so around here and in this thread in particular where discussion is very often only about the highest of the high end and where I just either havent heard most of it or just tend to disagree with a lot of what is discussed.

As long as there are human beings experiencing and discussing things there will be disagreements and differences of opinion-- this is as inevitable as gravity. What you believe is ultimately a lot less important than the tone and manner in which you express said belief(s). You've always had a very respectful and forthright manner of communicating that never comes off patronizing, overbearing, snarky, spiteful or dismissive-- even when you're taking an opinion that goes against the apparent status quo. This is appreciated. Each one of us has the ability and desire to express our own preferences, viewpoint & identity and so long as you don't infringe on other's inherent sovereignty in these things then all reasonable people should be fine. This drive to individual self-expression is one of the if not the most fundamental aspects of our humanity-- and is one main reasons people's dander is so quick to get up when others presume to tell us what to like, what to believe. There will always be people who are overly sensitive or intolerant, but there's not much you can do about that.

 

[Rockwell75]

Can I just take a moment to say that I love this forum. The community on here has got to be the most respectful and mature group of individuals, even when disagreeing, on the entire internet. Keep it up you guys.

Comments like this always make my day. Cheers man, and welcome.

 

[SteveK27]

I want to relate a story on the cable discussion. This goes back a number of years. K & W audio in Calgary sold me interconnect cables guaranteeing sound improvement from my CD player or money back. The sound defiantly improved and I still have the cables. So I looked at my setup and saw that I was using factory cables on my VHS, audio left & right plus video. So I bought some cheap Monster Cables as I didn't think there could be much sound improvement on a single-speaker TV. I put in a VHS tape with a music score and started listening. Paused the tape and raced to change cables, jumped back in my seat turned on the tape and was totally astonished at the improvement in the video picture on my TV. So I have visual evidence that cables make a difference.

I've also had vastly different experiences with iems based on which cable I connect it to.

I know people value cables to a varying degree, but for me the change in SQ is significant enough to warrant a good investment - even if the cable can get very pricey.

 

[SteveK27]

Can I just take a moment to say that I love this forum. The community on here has got to be the most respectful and mature group of individuals, even when disagreeing, on the entire internet. Keep it up you guys.

This community is by far one of the most mature group of audience I have ever encountered across the entirety of the internet.

And the beauty isn't just the way we conduct ourselves when presenting our thoughts and impressions onto others. This is also a tightly-knitted trust-based community where we can take confidence in each other to be honest and faithful even when participating in any transactions.

I've certainly never encountered a group like this elsewhere on the internet.

 

[yaps66]

This drive to individual self-expression is one of the if not the most fundamental aspects of our humanity-- and is one main reasons people's dander is so quick to get up when others presume to tell us what to like, what to believe.

This is interesting. As a Gen X Singaporean, this was not something that was encouraged or even tolerated. I believe the freedom of self-expression is more apparent now in Singapore but when I was growing up in Singapore, this was not always the case. I am not saying this as a criticism of Singapore but that was the reality and one of the reasons why I think Singapore is unique in achieving so much so quickly. I am of course over-simplifying this and there are a number of other reasons to account for Singapore's success.

Point is, this thread is unique for me in seeing how we are able to freely express ourselves and to do this respectfully on the one hand, and for others not to take offence on the other. When I was growing up, a difference of opinion was often seen as being rebellious no matter the tone. A difference of opinion is even encouraged here as it catalyzes discourse which is what makes this thread so entertaining without being tiresome!

YMMVAAT!!!

 

[gLer]

I think in theory blind listening tests should probably be the standard. But I also don't think anyone has the time or inclination to set that up properly. Plus it absolutely misses out on some of the fun of the hobby, which I think a lot of it for a lot of people is really about the fun of trying new things.

And there is absolutely a difference between stating why something may not be worth it to you or whoever personally, but telling someone they are wasting money or or deluded for pursuing a hobby the way they want is definitely a bridge too far. Let people enjoy what they enjoy.

As long as there are human beings experiencing and discussing things there will be disagreements and differences of opinion-- this is as inevitable as gravity. What you believe is ultimately a lot less important than the tone and manner in which you express said belief(s). You've always had a very respectful and forthright manner of communicating that never comes off patronizing, overbearing, snarky, spiteful or dismissive-- even when you're taking an opinion that goes against the apparent status quo. This is appreciated. Each one of us has the ability and desire to express our own preferences, viewpoint & identity and so long as you don't infringe on other's inherent sovereignty in these things then all reasonable people should be fine. This drive to individual self-expression is one of the if not the most fundamental aspects of our humanity-- and is one main reasons people's dander is so quick to get up when others presume to tell us what to like, what to believe. There will always be people who are overly sensitive or intolerant, but there's not much you can do about that.

@HiFiHawaii808 made the point the other day that this can be an extreme hobby, and when you're dealing with extreme hobbyists, a 0.05% difference in anything is HUGE. There are hobbies where people spend tends of thousands of dollars for a slightly different matte finish, so ours is relatively tame by comparison.

So acknowledging that something makes even a small percentage difference means there's going to be folks chasing it down. And of course there are other folks (like you @mashuto) who are far less extreme and don't see the value in dropping exponentially more money on the hobby than they feel comfortable doing. That's fine too!

In all cases, I find this is the most respectful and helpful community of 'extreme hobbyists' I've encountered, crazy as it gets sometimes, and that all goes back to the groundwork and philosophy @Rockwell75 set down from the start. That's why I and many others have made it their hobby home on the Internet.

 

[fabio19]

NOSTALGIA AUDIO CAMELOT (First Impressions)

I would like to thank @MusicTeck for the opportunity to review this IEM.





General Information:
2600 USD, 2DD+4BA+4EST
https://www.nostalgiaaudio.com/camelot

Tonality:
Transparent, in the realm of clear/neutral with a bass boost.

Comfort:
The shells are a touch smaller than Odin and are on the larger side of iems due to the unique opposed DD arrangement.

Bass:
Dual DD bass drivers (opposed drivers) give a faster, substantive bass feel however isn’t as cavernous as Legend X but has the texture and thickness I would expect from a Dual DD setup. Bass details and decay shine on this set, the driver can keep up with bass flutters of guitar or electronic music well. This is an antithesis to Trifecta’s slow and rumbly bass presentation, and I love Camelot's DD performance as well.

Mids:
Mids are the weakest point for me on Camelot, it is overly polite in presentation. Female vocalists and violins are my go to genres to evaluate mid performance. On Camelot, the violins seem distant and lack distinct ‘bite’ or intimacy. With Sueye Park’s first track of Paganini: 24 Caprices, the violin seem distant and just beyond my grasp, as if I’m chasing a feeling that’s just out of reach. On UM’s Indigo, the presentation is completely different. I can see the violinist in front of me, the violin slowly enveloping my very essence until I’m just a foot way from Ms Park and I’m on the edge of the violin, being lost in between the strings. Camelot gives the impression I’m listening to her performance through speakers or perhaps behind a window, peeking through the blinds Jim Halpert style. Camelot’s mids are smooth without harshness, however I find this works to its detriment as it robs the engagement of the music, this can be experienced with female vocals. Given Camelot’s lack of character of the mid performance, I would describe it veering towards flat and overly smooth. It would be difficult to find the smooth and silky mid presentation objectionable, especially for those new to the hobby. For seasoned audiophiles, perhaps we would expect a little more to get our blood pumping.

Upper Mids and Treble:
This set has pulled back upper mids and a relaxed treble. This is intentional to allow for longer listening sessions, as I have nary a hint of fatigue throughout my listening sessions. However, when listening to EDM (Lose You by Tiesto), I miss the extension of upper frequencies I find on DIVA which results in suboptimal reproduction of the ‘air’ of the mix and a more sedate presentation. Furthermore, when listening to orchestra (Star Wars, Revenge of the Sith Opening), the wind and strings hit a glass wall during the crescendo.

Summary:
Camelot is a very safe tuning from Nostalgia Audio, defined by the best bass presentation I’ve heard yet from a Dual DD arrangement. If you are looking for a smooth inoffensive listen, a set you can simply put on and not be distracted by, I can see the appeal of Camelot. If Nostalgia Audio can engineer Camelot with more presence/engagement in the midrange, this iem could serve as a great ‘casual counterpoint’ to Empire Ears Odin. The bass reproduction on Camelot is tight yet substantial, bassheads should demo Camelot for this aspect alone. The Odin was an iem I wanted to love, but the tuning was overly aggressive in the upper mids and could only be enjoyed in short durations despite the incredible technicalities. Camelot suffers from the opposite, it’s a set I can enjoy for longer, but I crave more technicalities and engagement (particularly in the midrange) from. If Nostalgia Audio can address these shortcomings, they could have a real winner.

*All listening was performed directly with Chord Hugo 2 + 2Go.

.....Just about Camelot's midrange and violins....Headphonics thinks differently. Beauty of listening subjectivity: " The lower mid-range is at the forefront of the overall sound signature sounding the most forward. This is closely followed by the upper mid-range which sits just behind the lower mid-range.

The upper mid-range is not too far forward that it becomes too harsh but instead is placed in a suitable manner where instruments and vocals come off as incredibly smooth, and detailed.

The Camelot detects and presents micro-details with ease which allows anyone to easily appreciate the music being presented.

For example, the sound and texture of guitars and violins being strung, piano keys being tapped, and male and female vocals are presented effortlessly with a high level of clarity, air, and space" .